# LITTLE Things That Irk/Please You in LOTR films **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 24, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980 "2008-09-24T14:06:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/101 "2008-09-25T19:46:29Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Thank you. And I still haven’t come up with the word. Vulgar, coarse enjoyment of a visceral pleasure, tempered by the exquisite psychological frisson of giving pain to Faramir. Libertine? Sadistic? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/102 "2008-09-25T19:56:32Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I can never grok the geometry of the entire staircase-bridge scene. …There’s NO way that initial shot makes sense, at all; if it was at all visible they should have been looking almost directly down on it. Moria was designed by the famous dwarf architect Emsi, son of Ezher. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/103 "2008-09-25T22:27:03Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Moria was designed by the famous dwarf architect Emsi, son of Ezher. _snerk_ ---
**Author:** ![ryobserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@ryobserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryobserver)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/104 "2008-09-26T00:50:04Z")
Irks: The already-mentioned camping up of Galadriel’s renunciation of the Ring, and gutting of Saruman’s role, also dump some of my favorite dialogue from the entire book. OK, I’m petty. But I think it would have been nice to hear Sam wishing Galadriel would take the Ring, because she’d “make some folks pay for their dirty work”, and Galadriel remind him that “that is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that!” Theoden is a southpaw swordsman, which would make him useless in a shieldwall, and a bit disruptive even in a cavalry charge. IIRC there were no lefthanded sword fighters in days of old–lefties were forced to train with the right. But that stopped bothering me after the opening of the battle of Helm’s Deep, when the orcs form up and charge the Deeping Wall WITH LOWERED SPEARS. Excuse me? Are they going to poke the wall with the points? Are they going to plant the points and pole-vault to the parapet? What exactly was that all about? That scene did have one helpful effect: at that point I gave up expecting ANY military tactics that would make sense outside of a fantasy movie, and sat back to enjoy the fun. Theoden being a lefty stopped bothering me. Legolas’s sledding, and the dwarf-tossing, barely raised an eyebrow. The final charge of Gandalf et al downhill onto the Orcs’ spears (THAT’S what spears are for), which would be pure suicide in an actual battle, just looked cool. As did the Ents’ giant game of Whack-an-Orc at Isengard. I guess the moral is, if you’re going to do a battle scene with crazy-ass tactics, start off with crazy-ass tactics, so everyone knows what to expect. Likes: All my favorite eye candy moments (so many!) have already been mentioned, so let me call out some ear candy: the thundering sound effects when the Mumakil advance. You had to be in a theater (with a good sound system) to really appreciate them: they threw in those loud, low-frequency notes that are not so much heard as felt, through the vibrating floor. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/105 "2008-09-26T01:31:57Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Libertine? Sadistic? Yeah, that and more. I am sorry I can’t spend more time looking for the word. IMS(which is iffy with me), it was used to describe ol’ Butt of Malmsy Clarence from Richard III. Denethor exhibits the same lustful appetite (not sex, folks) in that scene with Pip, but there is a dark element to it–a brooding malevolence. It repels and disgusts me, but it’s damned fine acting. [QUOTE=ryboserver] Theoden is a southpaw swordsman, which would make him useless in a shieldwall, and a bit disruptive even in a cavalry charge. IIRC there were no lefthanded sword fighters in days of old–lefties were forced to train with the right. [/QUOTE] Wins the thread for minuteness… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/106 "2008-09-26T01:47:12Z")
> [@ryobserver](#): > > But that stopped bothering me after the opening of the battle of Helm’s Deep, when the orcs form up and charge the Deeping Wall WITH LOWERED SPEARS. Excuse me? Are they going to poke the wall with the points? Are they going to plant the points and pole-vault to the parapet? What exactly was that all about? In Isengard’s defense, they had to get the war machine in gear to take on Rohan, and spears are a sound weapon to produce when you anticipate taking on cavalry. Of course, at one point they correctly assumed that Theoden would lead his people to Helm’s Deep, but maybe at that point it was too late to really crank out a lot of swords. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/107 "2008-09-26T04:31:26Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > One of the many scenes I liked, can think of off the top of my head, and hasn’t yet been mentioned is the lead-in to Gandalf “curing” Theoden. The Company enters the throne room and begins walking towards the throne, and Grima orders the soldiers to stop them because Gandalf was not relieved of his staff. Seemingly without missing a step, and despite being unarmed, Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn keep the soldiers from interfering. And one soldier starts to step forward, but Theoden’s son puts out an arm to stop him, smiling slightly. That wasn’t Théodred; he was already dead (or at death’s door, I forget). Nor was it Éomer; he was already banished. It was the doorward (Háma?) who’d let the big G take his stick in the first place. It flashed through my mind that he knew perfectly well what he was doing when he didn’t relieve Gandalf of the staff. > [@Kaio](#): > > Oh, I dunno. The slope at Helm’s Deep didn’t look much steeper than [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNStbzxuAQ4), and the Eorlingas are the best horsemen in Middle Earth. And they have the best horses, too, even aside from the Mearas. That scene was exaggerated – the trees were planted at an angle and the cameras tilted to make them vertical. Still a good scene, though (and great horsemanship). I’d say my biggest irk was the over-the-cliff bit in TTT and my biggest please not yet mentioned would be Grond in ROTK – for once movie-magic exceeded my imagination. The miniature was described as about as big as an SUV. I wonder where it is today? ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/108 "2008-09-26T04:39:11Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Yeah, that and more. I am sorry I can’t spend more time looking for the word. IMS(which is iffy with me), it was used to describe ol’ Butt of Malmsy Clarence from Richard III. Denethor exhibits the same lustful appetite (not sex, folks) in that scene with Pip, but there is a dark element to it–a brooding malevolence. It repels and disgusts me “Voluptuary”, damnit! ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/109 "2008-09-26T05:17:35Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > “Voluptuary”, damnit! Or “sybaritic”, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/110 "2008-09-26T08:08:19Z")
> [@](#): > > t flashed through my mind that he knew perfectly well what he was doing when he didn’t relieve Gandalf of the staff. Either that or it was the Istari Mind Trick: “Hand over your staff!” “You wouldn’t take an old man’s walking stick.” “I wouldn’t take an old man’s walking stick.” “Introduce us.” “I’ll introduce you.” ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/111 "2008-09-26T09:11:02Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Pleased: The bit with Gandalf and the Balrog falling and battling as they fell, into the lake in the depths of Moria. Irked: And then the story continues with Gandalf the White in the next movie, with them fighting atop the tallest mountain. Did they get to the bottom then get in an elevator? ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/112 "2008-09-26T10:48:13Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Irked: And then the story continues with Gandalf the White in the next movie, with them fighting atop the tallest mountain. Did they get to the bottom then get in an elevator? You could say that. 🙂 That bit is actually canon. After they fell, they fought under the earth until finally the Balrog fled. Gandalf pursued him through the dark tunnels until finally they were both at, if I remember correctly, the Endless Stair. It was supposed to have been an endless spiral spanning uncountable steps that finally led to the top of…hmm, I forget. But wherever it led, it was waaay up high. I guess the fight up would have been cinematic overkill and was edited out. * * * On topic… My irks… The awful CGI bit where Galadriel refused the Ring. I think Cate Blanchett is a competent enough actress to have pulled that scene off without any need for bizarre possessed voices and ghostly wraiths and whatnot. Oh that fake voice! Also, the kiss between Aragorn and Arwen at the coronation. It was not _dignified_, dammit! We’re talking about Aragorn, the greatest present-day Numenorean, and Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond, grand-daughter of Galadriel! They’re not going to make out in public and _giggle_! My likes… absolutely everything else. I don’t care what was cut out, or what was changed. I will love Peter Jackson forever for making the books flesh and blood, and so beautifully too. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/113 "2008-09-26T12:39:34Z")
> [@aankh](#): > > You could say that. 🙂 > > That bit is actually canon. After they fell, they fought under the earth until finally the Balrog fled. Gandalf pursued him through the dark tunnels until finally they were both at, if I remember correctly, the Endless Stair. It was supposed to have been an endless spiral spanning uncountable steps that finally led to the top of…hmm, I forget. But wherever it led, it was waaay up high. Just to clarify a bit more: > [@](#): > > [The Endless Stair](http://www.tuckborough.net/otherbuildings.html#Endless-Stair)began in the lowest depths beneath Khazad-dum and ascended to Durin’s Tower on the peak of the Silvertine. It was a spiral staircase of many thousand steps. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/114 "2008-09-26T12:58:38Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > That wasn’t Théodred; he was already dead (or at death’s door, I forget). Nor was it Éomer; he was already banished. It was the doorward (Háma?) who’d let the big G take his stick in the first place. It flashed through my mind that he knew perfectly well what he was doing when he didn’t relieve Gandalf of the staff. :smack: That’s right. It’s been a while since I’ve seen it, and all I could remember when I was typing my post was that the person who stopped the guard from stepping forward was someone who I’d seen earlier in the movie, who obviously realized what was happening, and knew that trying to stop them was futile. And I hadn’t thought of the possibility that the doorward had deliberately let Gandalf keep his staff. Now I’m going to have to watch the movie again and see if I can catch any sign of that. ---
**Author:** ![Arglefraster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Arglefraster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arglefraster)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/115 "2008-09-26T13:06:05Z")
> [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](#): > > Rather than Elves at Helm’s Deep I would rather they just showed brief scenes of, say, Elves fighting to defend Lorien or the Woodland Realm, and Dwarves defending the Lonely Mountain (I think PJ said he included the Elves to show that other races were also fighting Sauron). :eek: That’s _brilliant_! I can see this scene in my head, and it’s giving me goosebumps. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/116 "2008-09-26T13:20:23Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > “Voluptuary”, damnit! I will try to look for it this weekend. I am now a full blown political junkie AND I have to work, so I don’t have much time do chase words down. My thesaurus is useless. ☹ Irk: the way Theoden says the line when Eowyn inquires after Aragorn. “We have paid with many LIVES!” God, I hate how he says that line. We mock it openly when viewing it. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/117 "2008-09-26T13:59:18Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Moria was designed by the famous dwarf architect Emsi, son of Ezher. Oh, that one was good. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/118 "2008-09-26T18:28:17Z")
Irks: The bloody annoying ‘Theoden’s will crumbling’ bit in Helm’s Deep. Dude, you’re at _war_. You do not want the orcs to win. If you give in, _every single Rohirrim_ will die. Likewise Gandalf’s wondering if Frodo and Sam are still okay. Of course they are, otherwise Sauron would have the Ring and you’d all be dead! Likes: The Glittering Caverns, and the “Where is the horse and the Rider.” scene. Brilliant. Perfect. The charge onto the Fields of Pelennor. Also perfect. I started crying at that point first time I saw it, and didn’t stop until the end of the movie. I thought the Eowyn/Aragorn cooking scene was funny. Silly, but funny. You know, my baby hasn’t seen the movies or read the books yet. He might watch his first LotR movie today. I haven’t seen them in at least a year. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/119 "2008-09-26T21:34:18Z")
One irk from TTT: The scene when Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas, pursuing the Uruk-Hai, first meet Éomer and his troop of exiled Rohirrim. Thunder of approacing horses, then the Rohirrim appearing over the rise and riding past, until hailed by Aragorn, then wheeling back. Impressive cinematography, but what I have never seen mentioned: _doesn’t that scene make Éomer an incompetent commander of cavalry?_ Instead of past three friendlies, they could as easily have blindly ridden past an orcish ambush. ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980/120 "2008-09-26T22:04:28Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > One irk from TTT: > > The scene when Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas, pursuing the Uruk-Hai, first meet Éomer and his troop of exiled Rohirrim. > > Thunder of approacing horses, then the Rohirrim appearing over the rise and riding past, until hailed by Aragorn, then wheeling back. > > Impressive cinematography, but what I have never seen mentioned: _doesn’t that scene make Éomer an incompetent commander of cavalry?_ Instead of past three friendlies, they could as easily have blindly ridden past an orcish ambush. What the book makes clear, and the movie does not, is that Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are all wearing the cloaks Galadriel gave them. They don’t make them invisible, but they do make them extremely hard to see. Frodo and Sam hide from a couple of Southrons under another of Galadriel’s cloaks in TTT after Sam falls down the hill and goes boom. That’s actually another irk of mine: when you’re looking at the hillside through the Southron’s point-of-view the cloak has apparently transformed itself into a big cheesy-looking canvas rock, and then they have to do a fast jump-cut as Frodo throws the cloak back after the Southrons leave. It just looks kind of amateurish to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-things-that-irk-please-you-in-lotr-films/464980.md?page=7)