# "Live a good life", with or without Gods- quote of Marcus Aurelius
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 16, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080 "2011-05-16T12:30:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/1 "2011-05-16T12:30:57Z")
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
– Marcus Aurelius
This pretty much sums up my philosophy of life. For people who disagree, what’s your best shot at convincing me I’m wrong?
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### Author:  [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/2 "2011-05-16T12:48:00Z")
The assumption that any god who cares about your level of devotion is fundamentally unjust seems like something that many would take exception to.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/3 "2011-05-16T13:59:10Z")
(Some) Christians believe in salvation by “faith alone” – which is distinguished from “works.”
But I’m not sure whether prayer, worship, etc., would come under the heading of “faith” or “works.”
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### Author:  [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/4 "2011-05-16T14:13:27Z")
FWIW, I read somewhere on the backwaters of the internet that M.A. never said such a thing. It’s a fake attribution. I recall there being enough links to convince me that the claim’s true, but I’ll be damned if I can find it all now. It seems like Marcus started getting a lot of internet cred right after Gladiator came out.
Take it with a grain of salt, ‘s all I’m sayin’.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/5 "2011-05-16T14:26:39Z")
It’s like the anti-Pascal.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/6 "2011-05-16T14:35:27Z")
Can’t seem to find it on [Wikiquote.](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius) Though there is some cool stuff there –
> [@Marcus Aurelius](#):
>
> The longest-lived and the shortest-lived man, when they come to die, lose one and the same thing.
>
> * * *
>
> Never esteem anything as of advantage to you that will make you break your word or lose your self-respect.
>
> * * *
>
> Men seek retreats for themselves, houses in the country, sea-shores, and mountains; and thou too art wont to desire such things very much. But this is altogether a mark of the most common sort of men, for it is in thy power whenever thou shalt choose to retire into thyself. For nowhere either with more quiet or more freedom from trouble does a man retire than into his own soul.
>
> * * *
>
> **Reverence the gods,** and help men. Short is life.
>
> * * *
>
> The art of life is more like the wrestler’s art than the dancer’s, in respect of this, that it should stand ready and firm to meet onsets which are sudden and unexpected.
And then some of it is to a modern mind kinda WTF?! 😕
> [@Marcus Aurelius](#):
>
> Whatever may befall you, it was preordained for you from everlasting.
>
> * * *
>
> The man who is honest and good ought to be exactly like a man who smells strong, so that the bystander as soon as he comes near him must smell whether he choose or not.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/7 "2011-05-16T14:35:36Z")
Whether or not M.A. said it, I still like the quote. The question in my OP still stands, whoever said the quote.
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### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/8 "2011-05-16T14:40:38Z")
> [@cckerberos](#):
>
> The assumption that any god who cares about your level of devotion is fundamentally unjust seems like something that many would take exception to.
The issue isn’t caring about devotion _per se_; it’s caring _more_ about devotion than about actual moral conduct.
We recognize that a mere human who cares more about how much somebody sucks up than about how they behave is a shallow jackass; how much more would the same principle apply to a supposed god?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/9 "2011-05-16T14:43:41Z")
cckerberos- The objections are what I’m interested in! Do you object? If so, why? Can you convince me I’m wrong?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/10 "2011-05-16T14:51:21Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#):
>
> The issue isn’t caring about devotion _per se_; it’s caring _more_ about devotion than about actual moral conduct.
>
> We recognize that a mere human who cares more about how much somebody sucks up than about how they behave is a shallow jackass; how much more would the same principle apply to a supposed god?
What? [Gods Need Prayer Badly.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly)
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/11 "2011-05-16T14:57:10Z")
Here’s the closest quote by him I can find:
> [@](#):
>
> Since it is possible that you may depart from life this very moment, regulate every act and thought accordingly. But to go away from among men, if there are gods, is not a thing to be afraid of, for the gods will not involve you in evil; but if indeed they do not exist, or if they have no concern about human affairs, what is it to me to live in a universe devoid of gods or devoid of Providence? But in truth they do exist, and they do care for human things, and they have put all the means in man’s power to enable him not to fall into real evils. And as to the rest, if there was anything evil, they would have provided for this also, that it should be altogether in a man’s power not to fall into it.
So what that quote is saying is, "What ever you do, do it as if you may die the next moment. But, don’t be afraid of death, because if there are gods, they’ll take care of you, and if there aren’t, there’s no point in living. But there are gods, and they’ve made it possible for you to act in such a way to avoid bad stuff happening to you. And, if there’s anything bad that may happen to you in the next life/afterlife, they’ll make it possible for you to act in such a way as to avoid that too.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/12 "2011-05-16T15:09:14Z")
Philosophers from the beginning had been baffled by the purported spiritual value of ritual. From the first book of [_The Republic,_](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1497/1497-h/1497-h.htm#2H_4_0004) by Plato:
> [@](#):
>
> Accordingly we went with Polemarchus to his house; and there we found his brothers Lysias and Euthydemus, and with them Thrasymachus the Chalcedonian, Charmantides the Paeanian, and Cleitophon the son of Aristonymus. There too was Cephalus the father of Polemarchus, whom I had not seen for a long time, and I thought him very much aged. He was seated on a cushioned chair, and had a garland on his head, **for he had been sacrificing in the court;** and there were some other chairs in the room arranged in a semicircle, upon which we sat down by him. He saluted me eagerly, and then he said:—
>
> You don’t come to see me, Socrates, as often as you ought: If I were still able to go and see you I would not ask you to come to me. But at my age I can hardly get to the city, and therefore you should come oftener to the Piraeus. For let me tell you, that the more the pleasures of the body fade away, the greater to me is the pleasure and charm of conversation. Do not then deny my request, but make our house your resort and keep company with these young men; we are old friends, and you will be quite at home with us.
>
> \
> Yes, that is very true, but may I ask another question?—What do you consider to be the greatest blessing which you have reaped from your wealth?
>
> One, he said, of which I could not expect easily to convince others. For let me tell you, Socrates, that when a man thinks himself to be near death, fears and cares enter into his mind which he never had before; the tales of a world below and the punishment which is exacted there of deeds done here were once a laughing matter to him, but now he is tormented with the thought that they may be true: either from the weakness of age, or because he is now drawing nearer to that other place, he has a clearer view of these things; suspicions and alarms crowd thickly upon him, and he begins to reflect and consider what wrongs he has done to others. And when he finds that the sum of his transgressions is great he will many a time like a child start up in his sleep for fear, and he is filled with dark forebodings. But to him who is conscious of no sin, sweet hope, as Pindar charmingly says, is the kind nurse of his age:
>
> ‘Hope,’ he says, ‘cherishes the soul of him who lives in justice and holiness, and is the nurse of his age and the companion of his journey;—hope which is mightiest to sway the restless soul of man.’
>
> How admirable are his words! And the great blessing of riches, I do not say to every man, but to a good man, is, that he has had no occasion to deceive or to defraud others, either intentionally or unintentionally; and when he departs to the world below he is not in any apprehension about offerings due to the gods or debts which he owes to men. Now to this peace of mind the possession of wealth greatly contributes; and therefore I say, that, setting one thing against another, of the many advantages which wealth has to give, to a man of sense this is in my opinion the greatest.
>
> Well said, Cephalus, I replied; but as concerning justice, what is it?—to speak the truth and to pay your debts—no more than this? And even to this are there not exceptions? Suppose that a friend when in his right mind has deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right mind, ought I to give them back to him? No one would say that I ought or that I should be right in doing so, any more than they would say that I ought always to speak the truth to one who is in his condition.
>
> You are quite right, he replied.
>
> But then, I said, speaking the truth and paying your debts is not a correct definition of justice.
>
> Quite correct, Socrates, if Simonides is to be believed, said Polemarchus interposing.
>
> I fear, said Cephalus, that I must go now, for I have to look after the sacrifices, and I hand over the argument to Polemarchus and the company.
For all his attention to right and wrong, Cephalus seems to think that the best way to curry favor with the gods is to give them their due sacrifices; and the older he grows, the more important this seems.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/13 "2011-05-16T15:15:53Z")
It was always a challenge, anyway, for any Greco-Roman philosopher to be traditionally pious. A philosopher noticed what the average worshipper would not, namely, that the Greek gods\* are very bad role-models. They act just like half-civilized Bronze Age royalty would act if they had supernatural powers. They are vain, greedy, jealous, lecherous, wrathful, petty, spiteful and vindictive. They did not even create the universe, they just took it over after murdering their (murderous) parents.
\*Regarding Roman gods there was little actual mythology, save that borrowed from the Greek.
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### Author:  [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/14 "2011-05-16T15:21:50Z")
Ignoring the part about whether he actually said it, my response is, what exactly does it mean to live a good life? That could have any number of meanings depending upon who you ask, and they could be contradictory. I suppose that most would imply that it means to live a moral and just life, but even certain parts of those concepts are not universal.
That said, I am a theist myself, but I am also generally against ritual, especially that ritual which was clearly derived through tradition. Moreso, a lot of the ritual in religion seems to either be derived through tradition where the initial purpose was either a basic celebration or simply a good idea (eg, passover or sabbath respectively). I don’t personally believe in hell, but I’ve specifically always had issue with the idea that one can live as moral a life as possible, but never had a real opportunity to know God, and he’d be damned, but another man might lead a terrible life and forsake numerous opportunities, but have a deathbed confession, and he’d be saved.
I digress, but it seems to me that it sort of does actually have a religious turn, in that I believe that one of the primary purposes of religion, even if it has gotten away from that for a number of people, is to try to determine how to live a good, moral, and just life, and it seems to me that that quote simply says that promise of reward, threat of punishment, or even ultimate meaninglessness should not be motivational factors to which living a good life is a means, but that living a good life is an end unto itself.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/15 "2011-05-16T15:48:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> It was always a challenge, anyway, for any Greco-Roman philosopher to be traditionally pious. A philosopher noticed what the average worshipper would not, namely, that the Greek gods\* are very bad role-models. They act just like half-civilized Bronze Age royalty would act if they had supernatural powers. They are vain, greedy, jealous, lecherous, wrathful, petty, spiteful and vindictive. They did not even create the universe, they just took it over after murdering their (murderous) parents.
> \*Regarding Roman gods there was little actual mythology, save that borrowed from the Greek.
And, by the same token, it was not until the 18th-Century Enlightenment that thinkers began daring to conceive and pose moral criticisms of the (often fierce) deeds of God as recorded in the Bible. And we know where that led . . .
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### Author:  [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/16 "2011-05-26T13:57:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> “Live a good life…”
>
> This pretty much sums up my philosophy of life. For people who disagree, what’s your best shot at convincing me I’m wrong?
My objection is that this seems to assume that “a good life” is going to be defined the same in the three scenarios given, (and further that it’s going to be defined the same by all people who think this way.) I don’t believe that’s the case.
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
…my response is, what exactly does it mean to live a good life? That could have any number of meanings depending upon who you ask, and they could be contradictory…
[/QUOTE]
See?..
[QUOTE=iiandyiiii]
…If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
[/QUOTE]
This could easily mean, “he killed everyone in the next village, brought back their stuff, and made our lives better. We have a better standard of living, less competition and can increase our tribe. He’s a hero and will be remembered through the ages.”
The only way that “living a good life” would be the same **for you** in each scenario is if you live each scenario as if: “…there are gods and they are just…” But, once again someone else will have a different definition of a just god, and that will change what they think is a good life. So, what use is this philosophy if it can’t come up with the same code to live by for different people, and can’t even come up with the same code for any one person in the different given situations?
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/17 "2011-05-26T14:34:23Z")
I have to admit that I’m suspicious about the authenticity of the quote, too. I’ve read the _Meditations_ and don’t recall this being in there (I used one of the quotes from the Meditations as an epigraph for my Ph.D. thesis. In Physics. If Aurelius said or wrote this, you’d expect it to be in the Meditations). We’ve had discussions about spurious quotes from famous people many times on this Board before.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/18 "2011-05-26T15:23:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
> – Marcus Aurelius
>
> This pretty much sums up my philosophy of life. For people who disagree, what’s your best shot at convincing me I’m wrong?
I’m fine with it, and apparently Jesus is too given the good Samaritan parable.
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### Author:  [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/19 "2011-05-26T16:12:34Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#):
>
> That said, I am a theist myself, but I am also generally against ritual, especially that ritual which was clearly derived through tradition.
Interestingly, I’m an atheist who is generally FOR ritual. Rules are what gives meaning to life.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-a-good-life-with-or-without-gods-quote-of-marcus-aurelius/582080/20 "2011-05-26T16:27:13Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#):
>
> Interestingly, I’m an atheist who is generally FOR ritual. Rules are what gives meaning to life.
Interesting statement, as I consider myself a non-religious theist, and I find that rules are what destroys meaning to life.
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