# Live Fish and Reptiles Sold as Keychains in China **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202 "2011-04-13T05:47:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![3\_20\_59\_or\_bust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/47e85d/32.png) [@3\_20\_59\_or\_bust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3_20_59_or_bust)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/21 "2011-04-13T21:17:20Z")
Well, if it’s not a joke, it’s pretty fucked up. Spending money so you can have a soon to be dead animal to carry around? I don’t get the attraction. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/22 "2011-04-13T21:17:45Z")
I’m Chinese and this totally sucks. I’ve also seen the fried live fish cooking too, and the Japanese live sushi. Not cool at all… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/23 "2011-04-13T23:20:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I’m Chinese and this totally sucks. > > I’ve also seen the fried live fish cooking too, and the Japanese live sushi. Not cool at all… Good thing no-one in the west eats oysters or lobster then. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/24 "2011-04-13T23:49:13Z")
I don’t even want to click on the link, too depressing to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/25 "2011-04-13T23:49:27Z")
There is a gigantic psychological gap between the willingness to eat alive something (oysters) that is displaying no emotion, sentience or movement _whatsoever_ and for all intents and purposes looks and feels like a completely inanimate object, and the willingness to eat something that is actually writhing around, with its eyes staring at you. These creatures might be equally alive. But they sure as hell don’t _seem_ equally alive. This is the big issue for me that stands out as a difference in cultural attitudes between America and China. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/26 "2011-04-14T00:01:41Z")
What about lobsters, which are boiled alive? ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/27 "2011-04-14T00:17:28Z")
They’re not eaten alive. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/28 "2011-04-14T00:22:19Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > They’re not eaten alive. Presumably neither is the fish that was fried alive, unless I’ve misunderstood what was being said. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/29 "2011-04-14T00:22:35Z")
My understanding is that lobsters are dropped into boiling hot water which kills them instantaneously. (Some people claim to hear them “scream” but this is just steam escaping from their shells as they are boiled.) No chef at Red Lobster would prepare a lobster by inflicting some kind of severe, extended pain while it was still alive, and then serve it to the patrons _still alive_ and obviously suffering. This would never, ever fly in America, never in a billion years. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/30 "2011-04-14T00:31:45Z")
This seems to be heading towards the argument that if we don’t see the suffering, it doesn’t happen, so we’re better than those filthy foreigns. Which is bullshit. We all\* treat animals badly. I personally don’t care that much, but I’m not gonna pretend it doesn’t happen. \*As societies, not necessarily as individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/31 "2011-04-14T00:33:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Presumably neither is the fish that was fried alive, unless I’ve misunderstood what was being said. It is my understanding of the dish in question that indeed the fish is alive while it is eaten. It is merely cooked on one side, while the head is kept cool in order to make sure that the fish is not killed by the (semi) cooking process. It’s as if you had a severe, severe burn that did not kill you, and folks were lined up to eat your leg while it was still attached to you, and you were going “ow ow ow”. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/32 "2011-04-14T00:36:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This seems to be heading towards the argument that if we don’t see the suffering, it doesn’t happen, so we’re better than those filthy foreigns. > > . I think it’s a bit more complex than that. The cooking fish example is more like actively going out of your way to cause and then view the suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/33 "2011-04-14T00:37:04Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It is my understanding of the dish in question that indeed the fish is alive while it is eaten. It is merely cooked on one side, while the head is kept cool in order to make sure that the fish is not killed by the (semi) cooking process. > > It’s as if you had a severe, severe burn that did not kill you, and folks were lined up to eat your leg while it was still attached to you, and you were going “ow ow ow”. I’d love to see a cite for that. Every other example I’ve seen has been torture of animals as a side effect, not as the point of the process. If this is true, I’ll have to rethink my last post… ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/34 "2011-04-14T00:58:39Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > This is painting with a very broad brush but I honestly find the whole east Asian (well, Chinese and Korean, at least) attitude towards animals to be . . . bizarre. Like, 90% of gross animal food seems to come from there (mouse fetus wine?), they eat dogs (an animal which most cultures seem to regard as companions or dirty pests but not as food) and basically seem to be the only cultures I know of with no food taboos. I remember one time on the dope someone linked to a site showing people who eat, like, raw snakes (basically the snakes were grabbed alive, dipped in a vat of water and then sliced up with a huge knife and eaten) that of course took place in China. And now this. > > I mean, from what I understand even really poor people in, say, Africa might eat parts of animals that we don’t in the West, but even they only eat things like lizards, insects and snakes in desperation. And in America, eating those types of things has become more a novelty, but from what I’ve heard in China/Korea those types of animals are something of a semi-frequent treat. I know that in France people eat frogs legs and in Scandanavia people eat fermented shark but again it seems like in east Asia it’s taken to a whole new level. > > I’m sure someone will be along to rectify my ignorant viewpoints and I honestly welcome it, but from right now where I stand those are two cultures which have missed the, “some animals are for playing, some animals are for eating, and some are for avoiding” train the rest of the world has gotten on. Have you seen the reality of what goes on at factory farms in the US? Do you think that chicken or cow you had for dinner lived a happy life before it ended up on your plate? Animal cruelty isn’t limited to East Asia, but people in the West don’t seem to care unless the animals being mistreated are cute and/or exotic. That said, Asia in general does have a somewhat backward attitude towards animal rights - Korea has no animal cruelty laws to speak of. The general public needs to be better educated about why it’s not okay to buy puppies from puppy mills, or remove your dog’s vocal cords just because you don’t want to disturb the neighbors (although this practice has more or less fallen out of favor). But it annoys me when people get their knickers in a twist because Asians eat “weird food.” Food taboos in different cultures are pretty arbitrary. I don’t see how eating a dog or a mouse fetus is any different than eating a cow. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/35 "2011-04-14T01:00:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This seems to be heading towards the argument that if we don’t see the suffering, it doesn’t happen, so we’re better than those filthy foreigns. This isn’t exactly the best argument for this particular discussion, but there’s a part of it that makes a lot of sense. Yes, we in America subscribe to an “out of sight, out of mind” philosophy when it comes to suffering in general and especially suffering of animals. And I don’t think this is a good thing. I’m extremely pro-animal - although I do eat meat, and I fish and hunt and do other things that don’t jibe with PETA and other such groups, I despise factory farming, I try to always buy organic meat that was raised humanely, and I wish that more people would do the same. I respect the animal for providing me with meat; it’s a part of the natural life cycle that I’m participating in. I would never treat an animal cruelly or want to see it suffer. Now, most Americans probably don’t feel as deeply about it as I do. But most Americans _do_ care enough about it that they _want_ it to be “out of sight, out of mind.” The very fact that they do this, though it may not be morally correct, means that they find it upsetting to _personally witness_ animals being harmed. This is a crucial issue here when I talk about the differences in American and Chinese psychology as it relates to animals. Yes, Americans turn a blind eye, either wilfully or through ignorance, to the inhumane and unsustaibable practices of commercial meat processing. But they would still never eat something while it was still alive, flopping around on their plate, part of its body fried to a crisp and the other half staring at them in anguish. Most Americans would not be cool with a waiter bringing them a live snake, cutting it into pieces, and then serving them the still-writhing pieces. Do you see what I’m getting at. There is a huge, huge, huge leap from simply being complicit in animal suffering hundreds of miles away so you can have a steak on your plate, to actually witnessing and being appetized by an animal being tortured and served alive, and then enthusiastically eating it. ETA: > [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > But it annoys me when people get their knickers in a twist because Asians eat “weird food.” Food taboos in different cultures are pretty arbitrary. I don’t see how eating a dog or a mouse fetus is any different than eating a cow. Yes, I don’t have any problem with “weird food.” I believe in cultural relativism to that extent. I wouldn’t eat dog (might try horse) but I don’t look down on other cultures for eating whatever they want. As long as that animal wasn’t tortured, cruelly killed in a painful way, or served while it’s still alive and obviously sentient. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/36 "2011-04-14T01:03:29Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think it’s a bit more complex than that. The cooking fish example is more like actively going out of your way to cause and then view the suffering. I seriously doubt people eat fish this way because they like to see the fish suffer. It’s probably more along the lines of “It’s a dumb animal, it probably doesn’t feel pain, and besides, it’s tastier this way.” I’m not saying that makes it right, but it’s not the same as actively wanting to see an animal suffer. Koreans eat tiny octopuses alive, but they do it because they think it’s delicious and because they don’t consider octopuses capable of feeling pain. I promise you, it’s not because they desire to torture the octopus. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/37 "2011-04-14T01:50:58Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > But it annoys me when people get their knickers in a twist because Asians eat “weird food.” Food taboos in different cultures are pretty arbitrary. I don’t see how eating a dog or a mouse fetus is any different than eating a cow. I agree that to some extent food choices are arbitrary. But 1. From my limited, lay-man anthropological perspective, certain foods are more universally eaten and others are more commonly shunned. Almost all cultures eat herbivorous mammals, some fowl and some fish. Most seem to shun carnivorous mammals, presumably because they’re too resource-expensive, and insects, rodents, etc unless in dire straits. With maybe a couple of exceptions within each culture. East Asian cultures eat the beef and the mouse fetus. 2. Most cultures do have some kind of food taboo. The more extreme forms are Judaism and Islam, where huge swaths of the animal kingdom are denied, and some forms of Hinduism which are vegetarian. In most western cultures, the most common animals to eat are cow, pig, chicken, fish, seafood, turkey, maybe goat/lamb. From what I can tell East Asian cultures don’t have any food taboos. I realize that “East Asian” encompasses a wide variety of cultures, but is there a food or group of foods that are considered taboo in large parts of China or Korea? ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/38 "2011-04-14T01:56:40Z")
Similarly, for whatever reason, as far as I can tell, the only cultures that eat squirming food alive are east Asian. I guess it’s also surprising to me because east Asian cultures are very much exposed to the West. Like, if there was some remote tribe in New Guinea that ate live ants as a delicacy, it wouldn’t surprise me as much as a culture that is very integrated with Western society. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/39 "2011-04-14T02:02:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Good thing no-one in the west eats oysters or lobster then. I don’t think oysters or lobsters are eaten alive. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It is my understanding of the dish in question that indeed the fish is alive while it is eaten. It is merely cooked on one side, while the head is kept cool in order to make sure that the fish is not killed by the (semi) cooking process. > > It’s as if you had a severe, severe burn that did not kill you, and folks were lined up to eat your leg while it was still attached to you, and you were going “ow ow ow”. > [@Steophan](#): > > I’d love to see a cite for that. Every other example I’ve seen has been torture of animals as a side effect, not as the point of the process. If this is true, I’ll have to rethink my last post… [Half living cooked fish.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fGOjZjM0xQ) It’s disturbing [Snakes and fish being prepared live.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYUqfgfpjRw&feature=related) The snakes get decapitated first, so that’s not too bad. Fast forward to about :43 and you’ll see them prepare the fish. Those are not decapitated. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202/40 "2011-04-14T02:04:59Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s also my reaction. I’m old enough to remember the bloody uproar over BonzaiKitten. That’s exactly where I went. My little sister was _outraged_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/live-fish-and-reptiles-sold-as-keychains-in-china/578202.md?page=3)