Living a cruelty-free life.

If you’d like to do some research on this subject, I can recommend two densely-written books on the subject.

First is Animal Liberation by Peter Singer. It may be pretty out of date; a large section of it talks about specific cruelties in laboratories and farms. But a lot of the book details his philosophy of preference utilitarianism, in which that which is good is represented by that which fulfills the greatest preferences of the greatest number of entities, or something like that. He builds his philosophy pretty well.

Second is The Case for Animal Rights, by Tom Reagan (I think). I found the book dense almost to the point of unreadability, but when I finally worked my way through it, I found a very well-reasoned argument for granting some rights to some animals, at least including mentally normal mammals over the age of one (and probably more animals).

A bonus book, Rattling the Cage by Stephen Wise, describes the case for granting some rights to chimpanzees and bonobos, based on cognitive research into their capacity for self-awareness. It’s very readable, has some interesting stories, and raised some suspicions from me on how skeptically he conducted his research.

If you’re interested in reading just one, I’d go for the second one. If you want to read just one and want an easy read, go for the third one. I’ve checked out Reagan’s website, and it’s not nearly as coherent as that one book is.

The thing is, although I’ve read a bit on the subject and can recommend some of the major texts, I’m not convinced by them: I’m not agitating for major changes to the law, even though part of me thinks I should. I’m not familiar with any poster on these boards who is dedicated to an animal rights position, unfortunately, so when these threads come about, I step in, trying to explain positions that I don’t fully believe in, because I at least think the positions are respectable.

Daniel

The definition of gluttony I was given in cathechesis was “eating or drinking something or in such amounts that it’s bad for you”. Canibalism was discussed and agreed to be “ok if no other food source can be found”. Rabbits are eaten in Spain and pets in Japan; dogs are pets in Spain and eaten in Korea.

And your question is?

From a seed a plant pokes through the dirt and stretches to seek the sun. It turns and gathers in the life the sun gives. It takes nutrients from the ground and attempts to reproduce in the prime directive of all species ,to keep it’s kind alive. Yet we rip it out of the ground and eat it. We are so cruel.

(emphasis added)

You quoted my question, but I’ll quote it again, since you seem to have missed part of it:

Unless you’re going further than what you said before, and think that eating your neighbor’s liver is okay because you’ve always wondered what it’d be like to eat a human liver, then you don’t think it’s okay to eat anything for any reason.

Daniel

This joke just gets funnier and funnier!

gonzomax, if you really think this is a productive contribution to the conversation, I encourage you to go back and read post 2, specifically the second paragraph. This type of post is the equivalent of coming into a thread about gay rights and saying, “Why don’t we just turn Fridays into mandatory gay-sex day, if that’s the way we’re going to do things?” It’s foolish, off-topic, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the points people are raising.

Daniel

Thanks for the sources, LHoD.

Gotta kill to live.

Sapo, thanks for a very thoughtful thread here. Daniel, LHOD, has, of course, been on the ball with the salient points.

Not sure if it’s GD worthy, but I’ll add my point of view as a vegetarian for ethical reasons. I’ve posted parts of this before here, so hope it isn’t too repetitive. My becoming vegetarian started at 11, seeing fish my marine biologist Dad hauled up die thrashing around in nets. I didn’t like that suffering death part, and refused to eat fish after that, much to the chagrin of my parents, cause it was free food. Took a few years after that to develop a more unified concept of vegetarian diet, fueled by moving to a veg friendly college town. The more I learned, and had good examples of how to eat veg, it was easy because of the ethical desire to not cause harm.

One aspect of discerning cruelty that Daniel did not go into here, though I know he has experience with, is being around animals, and caring for them, as a factor in determining one’s ethical decisions. I have always had an incredible array of pet critters from childhood on; again, thanks to biologist Dad. They ran the whole spectrum of sentience: the usual cats and dogs, gerbils, hamsters, rats, chinchillas, parakeets, parrots, tarantula, large mexican beetles, giant South American toads, turtles, every dang kind of fish, including walking catfish and electric eels, on and on and on.

I grew up with an intimate knowledge of seeing how other creatures live, and appreciating their lives. For me, whenever it dawned on me that I was taking those lives by eating them, I didn’t want to do that, because I saw that they were valid and intricate lives. It pained me to have to kill another creature. And I learned other ways of eating so I didn’t have to. That was 25 years ago, and I’m pretty healthy, so guess it works. That’s my choice, and I never force it on others, and, don’t anthromorphise either. I know how nature works, and am fine with it. But, as a human being this go round, I view other creatures with compassion.

It has been an ongoing process, as most thoughtful endeavors are. You start out with just not killing the cow, but then realize that white flour is not so good either, and then, oh my, the ways we get chickens to produce eggs non-stop is pretty cruel, too.
It’s an ever-going process of discernment, and decisions based on what you value. For me, those values are based on compassion. I find that, as I learn more about what goes into keeping me alive, and the network that allows that, my compassion deepens, on my better days. I’m grateful for it. By having that attitude, it’s easier to decide not to cause any more suffering than neccessary. I ain’t pure, by any means, but knowing animals at an intimate level has always caused me to rethink my dietary habits.

That is an integral part of my being, taken for granted, to exist and care alongside so many different animals. I’ve learned that is not the norm, though, so hope this take on it is helpful.

For any reason, no, but that was included in my answer actually. Eating your neighbor’s liver tends to be quite bad for you - it may not make you sick but it’s likely to make you jailed. In solitary.

Here’s my two cents:

I happen to be vegan (no animal products whatsoever).
I have never made a moral/ethical absolute out of the issue.
I do what I practically can to reduce my contribution to the suffering of animals and others.

Here’s part of my perspective that may contibute to this thread:
I have two daughters(1 and 3.75 yrs old).
Although I restrict my own diet, I do no such thing with regards to my daughters.
Why? Because I remember growing up eating corndogs and grilled cheese sandwiches at grandma’s house and I think it would be *cruel * to deprive my children of those memories.
When they are old enough to understand, I’ll do my best to explain my views to them but the choice will be left solely to them as individuals.

Here’s my two cents:

I happen to be vegan (no animal products whatsoever).
I have never made a moral/ethical absolute out of the issue.
I do what I practically can to reduce my contribution to the suffering of animals and others.

Here’s part of my perspective that may contribute to this thread:
I have two daughters(1 and 3.75 yrs old).
Although I restrict my own diet, I do no such thing with regards to my daughters.
Why? Because I remember growing up eating corndogs and grilled cheese sandwiches at grandma’s house and I think it would be *cruel * to deprive my children of those memories.
When they are old enough to understand, I’ll do my best to explain my views to them but the choice will be left solely to them as individuals.

P.S. Hope this isn’t too off topic but, the couple that was in the news recently because they killed their infant by only feeding him/her apple juice and soy milk…despicable.

I need to subscribe. :smack:

And is that the only reason why you don’t kill and eat your neighbor–because it’d be bad for you personally? Because that’s sociopathic.

Daniel

A life with less cruelty could be so because it minimizes suffering and perhaps brings happiness, as well as because it minimizes death.

It’s hard not to believe the capacity for suffering varies between species, though we realize we wouldn’t always estimate this capacity correctly.

The harder I try to avoid causing suffering, the better life seems. But I sure could improve further!

Oh, absolutely it varies between species. It also varies between individual humans, although not to as great a degree; even with humans, we make mistakes in estimating the cruelty to one another (I am reminded of my college roommate who cheated on his long-distance, long-term girlfriend because he thought she wouldn’t mind).

At the same time, other creatures are not a cipher: they exhibit behaviors that allow us to determine what they might experience as suffering, and their nervous systems have traits in common with ours that aid in such an analysis. We can draw on that. A carrot has no pain nerves; talking of the pain experienced by a carrot is wildest speculation. A hamster has pain nerves: talking of the pain experienced by a hamster is conservative theorizing, barely more speculative than talking of the pain experienced by another human being.

You touch on one of the main reasons why I don’t accept animal rights philosophy, which is that I’m not convinced that other animals experience death as suffering. There’s a wonderful Sartre short story in which the protagonist faces his execution in the morning, and the story is all about the agony of the expectation of death: when he is released unharmed the next morning, he is still a broken man. I think that experience is uniquely human. We obsess about death and fear it, and we have a tremendous interest in not experiencing an unnecessarily early death.

I don’t think pigs have any such interest. Pigs just want to avoid pain. I was on a farm yesterday evening and saw pigs chilling in a pile of fresh hay, basking in the setting sun; I know that these pigs get more than their fill of delicious slops, and they have plenty of room to run around in, and they breathe fresh air, and they receive good medical care when necessary. These conditions for these pigs are predicated on the fact that they will be killed for sausage in the fall. I know that these pigs like to avoid pain, but I can’t begin to speculate on whether, given the choice between their current life (ending soon in sausage) and the alternative (a long hungry life absent all these creature comforts), they would choose the former or the latter.

Daniel

It brings me to some interesting, if different conclusions and ethics. First off, though, I"m a total hypocrite. I am appalled by the amount of waste my family and I generate in a given week.

While I think we are becoming environmentally conscience in terms of energy, I beleive that’s the least of it. To me, the great evil of modern society is the bic razor and all that it has wrought. Planned obsolescence and cheap shit so fill our lives that we have hardly any idea how much we waste.

It didn’t always used to be this way. I’ll give you an example.

I moved to a farm in PA in 1993. There was a tractor there, a 1948 Super A IH with a belly mower. Looked like this:

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=372&aid=4177&lid=1362354
(except unrestored)

I mowed with that for ten years. It had the original tires on it. I did some repairs and replacements to it, but essentially it was always running and in continuous service for over fifty years. When I moved, I took it with me. The property here though is too hilly to safely use that machine and I nearly tipped it. I bought a $1,400 lawn tractor from Lowes to do the hills. That thing was made out of pot metal, cheap pressed sheat metal and plastic. I wore it out within two years. The steering ball was made out of plastic and exposed so that the teeth accumulated grit and wore to nothing. The frame ben, the plastic cracked. The pot metal mounts to the engine cracked, etc, etc. Basically the entire machine wore out.

A year old and they don’t make parts for it. It was not built to be fixed. It was built to be used for a little while and then discarded. It had less than 100 hours on it.

They Still make parts for that Super A.

I searched long and hard and I eventually traded the Super A for a new Kubota. This machine is built to outlast me, and it should reasonably be giving somebody service 60 years from now.

So, my ethic about these things is that that Super was the most environmentally friendly lawn tractor anybody ever had. It cost a lot to manufacture, yes, but it only cost that much once. It was built to last.

The entire effort and cost of manufacturing shitty lawnmowers is a tremendous waste on this world that I think is destroying the environment. Think of the cost and energy and consumption of resources needed to manufacture these shitty things. Think of clear cut forests, strip mining, the labor, the energy all needed to make and transport a shitty lawnmower. And then think that that is all a waste because you will need to do it again in a couple of years.

I can see the difference in the house I live in now versus that farmhouse. That farmhouse was almost three hundred years old. Every 60-80 years, the mortar needed repointing. The slate roof could be repaired indefinately. I doubt the house I stand in now will last 60 years. All the energy and effort that went into constructing it will have been wasted.

Look at bic razors. You use them for a while, throw them away and buy new ones. Look at all the resources wasted on that. It’s in everything in our lives.

It’s all cheap shit.

Yvonne Choinard, the founder of Patagonia has a book on the subject and the environmentalism of all this callous waste. **Let My People Go Surfing[b/] They try to build some clothes that are meant to last. I have a pair of their stand up shorts. I’ll bet I wear them still 40 years from now.

Look at all of our electronics. How old is your phone? How often must you replace all your crappy shit that falls apart all the time?

So, my environmental ethic is this: I strive to buy the last of something that I will ever buy. I try to buy things that are efficient, not fashionably efficient, but truly efficient.

I installed a geothermal heat pump in my house, and paid a lot more money to get one that should outlast the building. I’ve been upgrading my building so that it too will last longer than otherwise. I have cookware that looks like it was carved out of a single block of steel, a watch that should outlast me. The idea is that I will spend a lot more money up front but I will only spend it once.

I think the most enviromentally sound vehicle I ever owned was a truck I built out of two '79 Chevys. I took the cab from one, the bed from another, ground and welded the rusty panels, put new cab and bed mounts and a rebuilt motor and transmission into it. It was mechanically new, but cost me about $2,500. I drove it about 30,000 miles, plowed snow and used it on the farm. I sold it for $2,000. Net cost to me about $500 plus gas. I don’t think it got more than 15 mpg, but I’ll stack that truck up against anybody with a prius or a Civic. It didn’t have these huge battery cells to be replaced, and it didn’t have the huge cost of manufacture, and transportation. It was basically salvaged. To my knowledge it’s still running.

I mulch. I save my carbboard boxes for storage or to start a fire. I try not to throw away food, and I buy in bulk when I can, because the biggest waste that I can think of comes from the manufacture, transport and packaging of goods. Still, it seems that 90% of my garbage is packaging of stuff I bought. What a waste.

I think most people are worried about the wrong things. There’s nothing wrong or cruel with eating beef to my thinking. The whole animal basically gets used, and it’s efficient in terms of calories to bulk. I imagine that a head of iceberg lettuce would not compare favorably to a steak if we were to try and measure cruelty and waste and loss of life by the calorie.

I try to keep myself physically fit and strong, and I try to maintain everything I own myself. I try to fix things that break and I try to buy things that are meant to be fixed not discarded because I think it’s a win all around if I do. I gain knowledge and satisfaction and skills from being able to do these things. I have nice stuff that will last. It should be cheaper in the long run, and I am draining less resources and creating less waste. Ultimately, I think my ethic of efficiency means that there is less cruelty and suffering than I would otherwise create.

Still though, I am tremendously wasteful compared to what I think I should be.

A potato is a pretty efficient food source. It can be grown locally in a sustainable fashion. It’s pretty tough to beat a potato in terms of efficiency. You are planting a monocrop and tilling land and risking erosion and killing everything else on that land to do it. We have dairy farms around here and they’re actually a pretty neat operation, too. They plant corn and other silage crops and feed the cows with it, take the milk, collect and store the cow’s waste and recycle it into the fields. The cows get butchered and used pretty completely when they are no longer productive. A cow produces a lot of milk over it’s life, and it’s not a bad life at all, not cruel that I can see. Milk is pretty dense nutritionally and massively useful in all kinds of food products. I guess I would have to give the edge to the potato, but I don’t think it’s such a great win that a potato eater could look down on a cow drinker, or think they were living so much cleaner. That edge could easily be eroded. Do you waste the skin of the potato? Eat the whole thing? Do you buy in bulk? Are they local potatos? Do you drink the whole bottle of milk, or only use half?

I think the amount of cruelty and suffering is going to come down to packaging and efficiency of use by the consumer, and is not going to be significantly inherent in the potato versus the cow.

YMMV.

If you wish to live a “cruelty-free” life, you might want to stay away from “organic” vegetables. By definition, organic vegetables are grown without use of artificial fertilizers. So what natural fertilizers are used instead? In my experience, the most common natural fertilzers are chicken manure and pig manure, produced by so-called “factory farms.” The manure is placed into tanker trucks, mixed with water, and sprayed onto the fields.

So if you are eating organic foods, you are indirectly supporting factory farming by providing a market for one of its byproducts.

Better to suck it up and eat foods grown with chemical fertilizers if animal cruelty is your primary concern.

Excellent point. Chemical fertilizers tend to be made from petroleum and from mined minerals, and as we all know, the petroleum industry is probably the second most environmentally friendly industry out there, exceeded in its minimal impact on animal habitats only by the mining industry.

spoke, this isn’t really a game that you can win, not even through snarkiness. Unless you’re a Jain and willing to take some profound measures, you’re going to be contributing to cruelty in one way or another. The choice everyone makes is twofold: first, how much will you personally contribute to cruelty, and second, how much cruelty will you tolerate from your fellow citizens?

Daniel

Yep; so your choice is between environmentally friendly or cruelty-free. Seems you can’t have both (at least not without enormous expense).

No snark intended; just a reality check.