# living paycheck to paycheck **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 31, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004 "2018-12-31T21:39:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/181 "2019-01-06T18:23:58Z")
As someone whose entire extended family has been poor or working class my entire life one of biggest issues of getting ahead is dealing with your family. Anytime any member of family makes more money or gets a windfall they expected to help out and bail out the members who are less successful. It’s particularly frustrating dealing with the dumb financial decisions of your relatives. I’m talking about the mindset of some where the first thing they do when they get their paycheck is buy a case of beer and cigarettes and then just do what ever they can to buy food and/or pay the bills. If you buy a bigger house that just means you have a more space for relatives to crash when they get evicted. It can get to the point where you have to decide whether or not you want get get ahead or whether you want to cut your family off. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/182 "2019-01-06T18:36:57Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > How then, can our poor maintain a lifestyle that consumes at least 10,000 labor hours per year when they only produce 2000 themselves? > Unless their labor hours are worth 5 times as much as someone elses. Sorry, you lost me there. Might be a good point, but I don’t know what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/183 "2019-01-06T19:30:24Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > Sorry, you lost me there. Might be a good point, but I don’t know what it is. If we add up all the labor that goes into maintaining all the goods and services required to maintain a single household at the minimum standards in America those labor hours far exceed the hours that household produces. So how are they affording this lifestyle? They must be employing people who are poorer than they are. At the very bottom of the pyramid you’ll find the only people who actually produce more than they consume. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/184 "2019-01-06T19:36:06Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > As someone whose entire extended family has been poor or working class my entire life one of biggest issues of getting ahead is dealing with your family. Anytime any member of family makes more money or gets a windfall they expected to help out and bail out the members who are less successful. It’s particularly frustrating dealing with the dumb financial decisions of your relatives. I’m talking about the mindset of some where the first thing they do when they get their paycheck is buy a case of beer and cigarettes and then just do what ever they can to buy food and/or pay the bills. If you buy a bigger house that just means you have a more space for relatives to crash when they get evicted. It can get to the point where you have to decide whether or not you want get get ahead or whether you want to cut your family off. Amen to that. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/185 "2019-01-06T20:01:14Z")
> [@contradancer](#): > > Is there anyone who has their story to tell of living on an income that just does not pay for what used to be a middle-income life? Is it the overall picture of this country now or just a few? I’m interested in this question. I keep reading how it’s harder to maintain a middle class lifestyle than it used to be. I know some things are much cheaper than they used to be (e.g our flatscreen broke recently, it was actually about the same cost to buy a bigger one than put a new board in it). I don’t know because our household chooses to live drastically below our means. Is it possible to live a decent life through humble work? (Sandwich artist, drywall-hanger, dog trainer, Army PFC, & so forth). If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/186 "2019-01-06T20:10:31Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > The existence of a monetary heirarchy means someone has to be on bottom. > Without it there is no motivation for anyone to learn advanced trades. Yes there is. Many people, while wanting to make enough to cover the basics, have very different ideas about how much more is necessary/makes us happy. Those in secure-enough positions can afford to trade making less money for having otherwise-better benefits: this explains why doctors in some UHC countries pretty much stopped having private practices if they can get into the government-managed system (which pays less but has more-reliable hours and calendars). And many people would get bored shitless in a lower-qualified job: I wanted to go into engineering because I was told “our graduates can be found in the most unexpected jobs, including several diplomats”, not because it paid better than being a supermarket cashier. I’m a sucker for “enlist, see the world”, and might in fact have tried to get into a military career if it hadn’t been barred to me by gender at the time I was eligible by age. Military careers pay less than I currently make, but they get some really neat toys and there’s that “see the world” part. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/187 "2019-01-06T20:42:26Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I’m interested in this question. I keep reading how it’s harder to maintain a middle class lifestyle than it used to be. I know some things are much cheaper than they used to be (e.g our flatscreen broke recently, it was actually about the same cost to buy a bigger one than put a new board in it). I don’t know because our household chooses to live drastically below our means. Is it possible to live a decent life through humble work? (Sandwich artist, drywall-hanger, dog trainer, Army PFC, & so forth). If not, why not? No, it is not. Try writing up a simple budget for $1400 a month. Maybe if you’re ok with being single and having roommates for the rest of your life. Maybe if some major thing like a house is given to you. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/188 "2019-01-06T20:55:32Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Yes there is. Many people, while wanting to make enough to cover the basics, have very different ideas about how much more is necessary/makes us happy. Those in secure-enough positions can afford to trade making less money for having otherwise-better benefits: this explains why doctors in some UHC countries pretty much stopped having private practices if they can get into the government-managed system (which pays less but has more-reliable hours and calendars). And many people would get bored shitless in a lower-qualified job: I wanted to go into engineering because I was told “our graduates can be found in the most unexpected jobs, including several diplomats”, not because it paid better than being a supermarket cashier. I’m a sucker for “enlist, see the world”, and might in fact have tried to get into a military career if it hadn’t been barred to me by gender at the time I was eligible by age. Military careers pay less than I currently make, but they get some really neat toys and there’s that “see the world” part. Choosing between all the trades that pay enough to live is a wholly different story. We’d have a lot more artists in the world if it were a secure career path. And we’d have a lot more cashier’s if it paid 100k No motivation is admittedly oversimplified but I’m sure you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![BrickBat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@BrickBat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrickBat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/189 "2019-01-06T21:02:24Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > As someone whose entire extended family has been poor or working class my entire life one of biggest issues of getting ahead is dealing with your family. Anytime any member of family makes more money or gets a windfall they expected to help out and bail out the members who are less successful. It’s particularly frustrating dealing with the dumb financial decisions of your relatives. Bingo. Been there, done that. Others in my family have the means to decent solvency but for the fact they can’t resist having the biggest house they could possibly buy, and fill it with stuff to the point the insides look like a ‘Best Buy’ showroom, and shovel money at their kids in heapfuls. They get in a bind from all this credit extension and a hiccup creates a financial crisis. I am then put on the spot ( read: coerced ) into helping out/bailing out. Doesn’t matter that my relative solvency is due to my modest home and lifestyle. Hell, they probably realize that, but all they know is that they need money, and I have it. Hand it over you heartless ogre. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/190 "2019-01-06T21:02:31Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I’m interested in this question. I keep reading how it’s harder to maintain a middle class lifestyle than it used to be. I know some things are much cheaper than they used to be (e.g our flatscreen broke recently, it was actually about the same cost to buy a bigger one than put a new board in it). I don’t know because our household chooses to live drastically below our means. Is it possible to live a decent life through humble work? (Sandwich artist, drywall-hanger, dog trainer, Army PFC, & so forth). If not, why not? I don’t believe it is more difficult, but we elect to not buy all the new flash toys coming out such as a new phone when it is available. I’ll never be a millionaire - which is rather unfortunate- but we live comfortably and go out for a flash meal a few times a year. I think our main expense (apart from utilities) is the cat. I think our vet has built a new extension on her home. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/191 "2019-01-06T21:35:42Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > No, it is not. > Try writing up a simple budget for $1400 a month. > > Maybe if you’re ok with being single and having roommates for the rest of your life. > Maybe if some major thing like a house is given to you. My minimum required wage for my lifestyle is $1200/month, and most months I make about $1400. I have a one-bedroom apartment all to myself in a decent neighborhood. However, I have two reliable vehicles fully paid off and a nest-egg/emergency fund worth about 6-8 months of living expenses gained through some small inheritances and a few windfalls. I do most of my cooking from scratch and have cheap hobbies/interests at this point. And I am single with no dependents (well, my birds…) Without my previously acquired resources I think my existence would be much more precarious than it is. Not everyone could live as slimmed-down a lifestyle as I can right now. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/192 "2019-01-06T21:39:20Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I don’t believe it is more difficult, but we elect to not buy all the new flash toys coming out such as a new phone when it is available. I’ll never be a millionaire - which is rather unfortunate- but we live comfortably and go out for a flash meal a few times a year. When talking about being harder to maintain a middle class existence, I don’t think the problem is toys. I mean, how many flat screens and smart phones does it take to be middle class? The problem is really the cost of housing, food, medical care, daycare, and other things that aren’t luxuries. If the price of housing out paces wage growth enough, eventually families will be forced into housing situations that aren’t considered middle class. For example, a 4 bedroom house in a nice neighborhood compared to a 2 bedroom apartment in an unpleasant neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/193 "2019-01-06T22:18:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > My minimum required wage for my lifestyle is $1200/month, and most months I make about $1400. I have a one-bedroom apartment all to myself in a decent neighborhood. > > However, I have two reliable vehicles fully paid off and a nest-egg/emergency fund worth about 6-8 months of living expenses gained through some small inheritances and a few windfalls. I do most of my cooking from scratch and have cheap hobbies/interests at this point. And I am single with no dependents (well, my birds…) > > Without my previously acquired resources I think my existence would be much more precarious than it is. Not everyone could live as slimmed-down a lifestyle as I can right now. Imagine starting with nothing on your current budget, or having a kid. Still, congratulations, not many people can manage what you’re doing. Especially considering most 1bdrm apts in a decent area cost about half your monthly income in rent alone. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/194 "2019-01-06T22:41:07Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I don’t believe it is more difficult, but we elect to not buy all the new flash toys coming out such as a new phone when it is available. I’ll never be a millionaire - which is rather unfortunate- but we live comfortably and go out for a flash meal a few times a year. You used ‘flash’ as an adjective here twice. Doesn’t bother me, but this seems like a new thing. What’s up with that? ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/195 "2019-01-06T23:13:07Z")
Cicero is an Aussie I think. Flash has been a pretty common antipodean expression as long as I can remember. One of the biggest challenges to getting out of the paycheck to paycheck trap for us has been the normalisation of excessive debt amongst our peers. Other families seem quite content to borrow massive amounts to buy fancy houses, vehicles and holidays. We’re 7 years away from finishing off the mortgage on our very modest house in a nice area and that’s it. I honestly can’t understand how others can be so blase about owing 5 or 6 times their annual income on a mortgage plus many thousands in consumer debt. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/196 "2019-01-06T23:21:04Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Imagine starting with nothing on your current budget, or having a kid. Not possible - well, if you were _really_ good with the government benefits like SNAP, TANF, WIC, used the local soup kitchens, etc, _maybe_… > [@](#): > > Still, congratulations, not many people can manage what you’re doing. > Especially considering most 1bdrm apts in a decent area cost about half your monthly income in rent alone. About 2/3 of my take-home goes to rent and utilities. One reason I was enraged at being forced out of my prior home (2-bedroom, utilities included with rent, parking for two vehicles, space for a garden…) was because in _that_ place I was only spending about 30% of my take-home on housing. Anyhow - what keeps me solvent is that nest-egg. When I have a problem, like a vehicle repair or have to go to the doctor I can cover it out of there instead of having to borrow money and pay interest. I don’t think most people would consider me middle-class, though - technically it’s lower middle class but a lot of folks regard me as poor, only marginally less despicable than those “parasites” on food stamps. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/197 "2019-01-06T23:26:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Because growing food, building shelters, providing healthcare, running transportation and communication networks requires people’s labor. Or to put it another way, you want food, an apartment, medical care and a ride around town. Who do you expect to provide this for you? We should, collectively not tolerate anybody not having that stuff and work to provide it for everyone. Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/198 "2019-01-06T23:58:56Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > I honestly can’t understand how others can be so blase about owing 5 or 6 times their annual income on a mortgage plus many thousands in consumer debt. Because they see “everyone else” doing it, probably. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/199 "2019-01-07T01:34:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Not possible - well, if you were _really_ good with the government benefits like SNAP, TANF, WIC, used the local soup kitchens, etc, _maybe_… > About 2/3 of my take-home goes to rent and utilities. One reason I was enraged at being forced out of my prior home (2-bedroom, utilities included with rent, parking for two vehicles, space for a garden…) was because in _that_ place I was only spending about 30% of my take-home on housing. > > Anyhow - what keeps me solvent is that nest-egg. When I have a problem, like a vehicle repair or have to go to the doctor I can cover it out of there instead of having to borrow money and pay interest. > > I don’t think most people would consider me middle-class, though - technically it’s lower middle class but a lot of folks regard me as poor, only marginally less despicable than those “parasites” on food stamps. Assuming your income wasn’t higher at the old place , then $350-400mo utilities included for a 2bdrm…it’s no wonder they found a way to force you out. Without looking at the charts in every state; I think at $1400 a month one person can’t get any benefits. With a child I think you’d actually have to find a way to make a couple hundred less to qualify. Assuming you can also find some free child care so you can have an income at all. Or you’ve got a stay at home partner in which case you’re now trying to support 3 people on that, or take shifts working … That might be doable if your low income job happens to be one of the few with steady hours … ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004/200 "2019-01-07T02:31:23Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > If we add up all the labor that goes into maintaining all the goods and services required to maintain a single household at the minimum standards in America those labor hours far exceed the hours that household produces. > > So how are they affording this lifestyle? > They must be employing people who are poorer than they are. > > At the very bottom of the pyramid you’ll find the only people who actually produce more than they consume. It’s the opposite way around. The consumption of people in the US toward the bottom of the income scale exceeds their production in $'s\*. The difference is made up by transfer payments, subsidies (housing etc) and mandates (min wages etc) from people further up the scale whose pretax production exceeds their consumption. It’s the same in every other modern country with a welfare state. It’s got nothing to do with trade. Assuming that poorer countries subsidize the consumption of Americans is just as wrong as saying American trade deficits are a ‘rip off of America’. Different wrong conclusions arising from basic misunderstanding of international trade. \*within the US it’s also true of hours. Workforce participation rate and avg hours worked tends to increase not decrease as you go up the income scale. Naturally, since many people are poorly off because they can’t or don’t work full time. And again expanding that to internationally poor countries take more labor to produce a given amount because less capital per worker and other factors (lower skilled workforce, lack of clear property rights and a reliable rule of law in very poor countries, etc) result in low productivity: it’s got nothing to do with how much people in rich countries work. It’s just that poor (low $ output) people in poor countries aren’t eligible for transfers from rich people in rich countries, except foreign aid from rich countries which is relatively small; whereas poor people in rich countries are eligible for much larger transfers from better off people in their own country. So low producing people in poor countries are much worse off than similarly low producing people in rich countries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-paycheck-to-paycheck/827004.md?page=11)