# Living wage? We don't need no stinkin' living wage! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306 "2012-02-09T13:41:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/41 "2012-02-09T18:37:54Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > My Inner Economist says: If the company really isn’t paying enough that people like him can afford to work there, then they’re going to have trouble finding employees who _will_ work there, and the problem should correct itself. Is my Inner Economist wrong? If the current Great Recession has taught us anything, it is that economists of all stripes can be, and almost certainly are, wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/42 "2012-02-09T18:39:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If a person can’t find work, he is a lazy bum who is enjoying being unemployed. If a person is working at a low salary, he is a lazy bum who should have more skills to get salaries like the rest of us have. I think you sum up the conservative position very nicely. > > We have no idea of what his value to the company is. Presumably it is more than $8 an hour plus benefits. Then his loss will hurt the company, and some other company will gain his sterling talents. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/43 "2012-02-09T18:41:13Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Hunger also is self-correcting. When you starve too much, you aren’t hungry anymore because you’re dead. Is nature wrong? > > I don’t want to live in a world where I guy who wants to work for his family is considered an idiot for having a family. People who want to work and want to make more people are exactly the kind of people I want to support. What kind of society is this? Well online society has a ton of libertarians infesting it. People who sprang forth from the head of Zeus, perfectly formed, owing no one anything, superbly capable and sneering at the snotty crowds of mere humans who dare to complain of poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/44 "2012-02-09T18:50:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then his loss will hurt the company, and some other company will gain his sterling talents. Yah, jobs are easy to get. He should totally quit! Right now! ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/45 "2012-02-09T18:57:23Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > [http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/07/1051233/-I-Couldn-t-Afford-to-Go-to-Work-Today[More](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/07/1051233/-I-Couldn-t-Afford-to-Go-to-Work-Today)](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/07/1051233/-I-Couldn-t-Afford-to-Go-to-Work-Today%5BMore%5D(http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/07/1051233/-I-Couldn-t-Afford-to-Go-to-Work-Today)) > \*I Couldn’t Afford to Go to Work Today > I have a 45-minute commute to and from work, which costs me about ten dollars in gas each day. I’m down to six whole dollars, after paying what bills I could with my last paycheck. There are still unpaid bills, but there’s nothing I can do about them right now. I’m mostly worried about **how the hell I’m going to feed my daughter until my next check on Friday.** > > This is not a position I ever expected to find myself in. I have a full-time job at a distribution center for a well-known retailer. The company has weathered the Great Recession pretty well, all things considered: overall sales are off by only 1%, a variance which until recently would have been seen as a business hiccup. But I find that the recession itself has given the Powers That Be at my job an excuse to do whatever they damn well please to their full-time employees.\* Paying for internet connection does cometh first I guess. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/46 "2012-02-09T18:58:47Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Hunger also is self-correcting. When you starve too much, you aren’t hungry anymore because you’re dead. Is nature wrong? > > I don’t want to live in a world where I guy who wants to work for his family is considered an idiot for having a family. People who want to work and want to make more people are exactly the kind of people I want to support. What kind of society is this? I know. And I can’t believe that people are stopping you from helping him, too! Seriously, if you don’t want to live in such a society, why don’t you do something about it? Give all the money you don’t need to survive to charity. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/47 "2012-02-09T19:09:11Z")
I think this guy is deluded and has a warped sense of reality: > [@](#): > > managers and up are pulling six-figure salaries, at least. No flipping way. At 50 person facility, maybe the facility manager is pulling a 6 figure salary. Maybe. Everyone else? No way. You can see a chart of salaries here: [http://www.indeed.com/salary/Plant-Manager.html](http://www.indeed.com/salary/Plant-Manager.html). > [@](#): > > And few of us want to work very much harder than necessary to keep our jobs Nope. Can’t see any reason why management would be increasing productivity goals and shit canning people. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/48 "2012-02-09T19:13:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then his loss will hurt the company, and some other company will gain his sterling talents. In the long run, it’ll hurt the company, if they lay off good workers or just pay them so low that anyone who has a choice will go somewhere else. In the short run, it’ll help the company’s bottom line if they don’t have to spend so much on labor—and too often it seems that the short run is all the CEOs and decision-makers care about. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/49 "2012-02-09T19:16:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Seriously, if you don’t want to live in such a society, why don’t you do something about it? Give all the money you don’t need to survive to charity. I’m honored you think so much of my skills that my money could single-handedly change society. Alas, it isn’t so. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/50 "2012-02-09T20:14:08Z")
> [@IntelliQ](#): > > Paying for internet connection does cometh first I guess. Plenty of ways to get free internet if you know where to look. Some cities still provide it for free. And there’s the public library and the many, many restaurants that offer wifi (some McDonalds, Wendy and Burger Kings do, so we’re not talking a lot of expense). And there’s wardriving. Though I guess warbiking or warwalking would be smarter for this guy. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/51 "2012-02-09T20:19:06Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Boo fucking hoo. The use of this phrase means there’s about a 9 in 10 chance the writer doesn’t give a shit about anyone’s problems but his own and people’s like him. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/52 "2012-02-09T20:24:30Z")
> [@nate](#): > > I’m not so sure that is possible anymore. Can you imagine someone with a family making 8$/hr affording night school? My parents were able to work thier way through college and had $0 loan debt when they graduated… unless you really luck up and find a great paying, flexible-hour job, this simply isn’t possible. I don’t know what the solution is, but it seems more people had an easier path to prosperity years ago than they do now. Sure, it’s possible. I just did it in 2008. I joined the Army and saved some capital. I invested that in a house and rented out the rooms to people. I did school in the morning and worked child care in the evenings. It was hard being in the war and it was hard working all day, every day. But I’m debt-free with a six-figure income because I planned it that way. > [@rogerbox](#): > > The thought of the wrong kind of people raising a family in modest comfort at the expense of a few extra millions to already multi-millionaires is quite offensive to fiscal conservatives. This shouldn’t shock anyone paying attention that dollars are only sacred and owed to the haves, because market forces are sancrosanct and only workers should be competing for lower wages with third worlders. Nevermind that even in this country in living memory, it used to not be this way. Are you kidding me?! We _love_ an underdog, up-by-the-bootstraps, just-deserts story! Why do you think we put ol’ Joe the Plumber on a national stage? Why do you think it’s always “rah-rah, small businesses!”? What we don’t like to see is the game being rigged so that everyone gets a ribbon at the end of the day. > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Yah, jobs are easy to get. He should totally quit! Right now! They would be if this guy bothered to acquire any skills over his life. That’s my (our?) point. If he can’t find another job, he should take it as a sign that no one wants him, and be thankful for the one company that still does. If he _can_ find a job, then he should cuss out those greedy salaried employees and hit the road. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/53 "2012-02-09T20:35:13Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > They would be if this guy bothered to acquire any skills over his life. That’s my (our?) point. If he can’t find another job, he should take it as a sign that no one wants him, and be thankful for the one company that still does. If he _can_ find a job, then he should cuss out those greedy salaried employees and hit the road. Man, that sounds a lot harder than asking for a handout. I think I’ll pass. Thanks for nothin’. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/54 "2012-02-09T20:45:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then his loss will hurt the company, and some other company will gain his sterling talents. Do you deny that the increase in productivity we saw over the last decade or so was not reflected in pay? Or are you saying that the increase in productivity was solely due to those brilliant CEOs whose pay did explode? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/55 "2012-02-09T20:50:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Do you deny that the increase in productivity we saw over the last decade or so was not reflected in pay? Or are you saying that the increase in productivity was solely due to those brilliant CEOs whose pay did explode? Those gains in productivity came, in substantial part, by automating tasks formerly performed by unskilled labor, such as pick list fulfillment. Broseph should be thankful he’s got a job at all, and should be mindful that the day is nigh upon us when his position goes the way of elevator operators. Say, let’s find all those out-of-work elevator operators, put them back in elevators, and pay them a living wage of $40K! Who’s with me?!? **Voyager** , **rogerbox** , **erislover** , I’m gonna need you guys to cover payroll for the first little bit, but I’m sure you won’t mind—I know you can’t bear the thought of those poor elevator operators struggling. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/56 "2012-02-09T20:52:17Z")
It did not come because the guy and his co-workers only want to work hard enough not to get fired. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/57 "2012-02-09T21:40:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > However, I reject the implication that merely because someone works hard, they are somehow entitled to some unspecified minimum standard of living. They are entitled to whatever wage a willing employer pays them for their skill. I believe the opposite. Capitalism is supposed to be a strong and robust system. If it can’t produce broad prosperity then what good is it? Lining the pockets of the 1% isn’t much of a goal for me. I expect most companies could do just fine paying a living wage. Their profit margins would be smaller but so would all of their competitors. Some companies would fail, sure. But we aren’t looking for equality of outcome, after all. If they can only survive by paying scab wages then those are companies we can do without. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/58 "2012-02-09T21:46:42Z")
What a joke. I have zero sympathy for the writer of the article that the OP linked to, nor do I believe a majority of what the writer wrote. One quick click on the author’s RSS feed shows that he is nothing more than a typical “Teabaggers, Republiturds and Corporations are the suxor and I am owed better than what I have but shouldn’t have to work for it” OWS idiot. So he’s been at this job for over 5 years and still only makes $8.00/hour. That says a lot more about him, than about his employers. Let’s look at maybe why he’s stuck at the bottom. Apparently, he’s been looking for a new job at least since [March 2010](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/03/25/850905/-Conservative-Anger-Hits-Close-to-Home), when his evil Republican boss opressed him. I know that 2 years is a short time to find a new job, especially with the tough standards of $8/hour and less than 45 minutes away. Especially in such a small town as Nashville. :rolleyes: But all that aside, he also mentions about his boss: > [@](#): > > We would shake our heads and laugh about him later in the breakroom. > [@](#): > > We three Liberals proudly wore our Obama T-shirts every Tuesday until Election Day, causing our supervisor to scowl and grumble Really? So when you make fun of your boss with your coworkers and intentionally wear clothing to anger your boss, then write a public article making fun of him, you’re surprised you’re not on the top of the list for promotions and raises? Bottom line is that this author is just another typical OWS drum banger. No skills, no motivation, no work ethic, but still thinks the world owes him much more. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/59 "2012-02-09T22:54:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > However, I reject the implication that merely because someone works hard, they are somehow entitled to some unspecified minimum standard of living. They are entitled to whatever wage a willing employer pays them for their skill. Actually, **Bricker** , aren’t you a Catholic? And doesn’t Catholic teaching say something about workers being entitled to a minimum standard of living? A bit of searching turned up this quote from the [_Rerum Novarum_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rerum_Novarum) encyclical: > [@](#): > > Let the working man and the employer make free agreements, and in particular let them agree freely as to the wages; nevertheless, there underlies a dictate of natural justice more imperious and ancient than any bargain between man and man, namely, that wages ought not to be insufficient to support a frugal and well-behaved wage-earner. If through necessity or fear of a worse evil the workman accept harder conditions because an employer or contractor will afford him no better, he is made the victim of force and injustice. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/60 "2012-02-09T23:12:19Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Those gains in productivity came, in substantial part, by automating tasks formerly performed by unskilled labor, such as pick list fulfillment. Broseph should be thankful he’s got a job at all, and should be mindful that the day is nigh upon us when his position goes the way of elevator operators. > > Say, let’s find all those out-of-work elevator operators, put them back in elevators, and pay them a living wage of $40K! Who’s with me?!? **Voyager** , **rogerbox** , **erislover** , I’m gonna need you guys to cover payroll for the first little bit, but I’m sure you won’t mind—I know you can’t bear the thought of those poor elevator operators struggling. And those people kicked out by automation, like elevator operators, don’t make any money at all. But those who are left are making effective use of the automation to create value for their company. 30 years ago our secretaries typed letters and reports, filled in forms, and made manual reservations. Today our admin does the work of 3 secretaries in the old days and has to know a variety of far more complex applications than our old secretaries ever did. Hell, even the person taking orders at the take out window does the work of 2, juggling taking orders from the intercom and filling orders at the window. They are also more productive - why shouldn’t they get at least some of it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306.md?page=4)