# Living wage? We don't need no stinkin' living wage! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306 "2012-02-09T13:41:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/81 "2012-02-10T14:22:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > _ahem_ minimum wage laws. They put a floor on pay. To keep with your pointless analogy, the law doesn’t say what color my wife wears, but it does say she has to wear something. > > In any case I said nothing about legally mandating this. Even a living wage doesn’t do it for people making well above the living wage. We are talking ethics here, actually. Fine. I don’t agree there is an ethical mandate afoot here. Let me ask you this: imagine a company owned by a man who purports to adhere to a brand of ethics similar to what you believe. His company has, in accord with what you discuss, already cut out the extravagant bonuses for management and pay everyone “fairly” as you would define the term. But the economy is still bad, and the company finds itself facing the need for cuts. The owner calls Bill to his office. “Bill,” he says, “I’m sorry, but I have to let you go. The company’s profits just haven’t been what we were all counting on, this year.” Bill says, “I was worried about this, but frankly, after last quarter’s figures, I thought my job was safe, since I was the top performer in my section.” “Oh, you are, Bill, but the fact is, you’re single and still live with your parents. You’ll get by until you can find another job. Gloria, on the other hand…” “You’re keeping Gloria? Her numbers were the lowest in our group, and she’s late half the time.” “Yes, but she’s a single mother, and if i let her go, she’s going to have a much tougher time of it. She’s the sole support of that family.” Ethical? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/82 "2012-02-10T14:23:40Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > So I guess women never ate meat? Correct. As you so keenly observed, the pertinent factor there was “man.” Women never ate meat. Truly a dizzying insight. Or it could be that woman also made contributions to the survival effort that the man did not make, and that those efforts helped the man just as the man’s meat helped the woman. Either one. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/83 "2012-02-10T14:31:51Z")
I wasn’t focusing on the word “man”. I was remarking on the fact that primitive man had a better social policy than modern man. Though I admit, I sloppily assumed that you felt women did not hunt. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/84 "2012-02-10T14:39:17Z")
I can’t see why some people in this thread are so adamantly against making it more difficult to employ people. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/85 "2012-02-10T14:48:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Physical laws of the universe control the situation, and they dictate that food and shelter do not appear out of the sky. They must be taken from the world by physical effort. America is hardly in the position of primitive nomads in harsh conditions where the nonproductive need to be pushed away from the food pile. There is plenty to go around. If someone is working what is the point of denying them a living wage? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/86 "2012-02-10T14:50:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can’t see why some people in this thread are so adamantly against making it more difficult to employ people. Whaaa? Did you mean to say “adamantly against maiking it easier to employ people?” Why would anyone be in favor of making it more difficult? And that’s even before I give any attempt to decipher who you’re talking about and what difficulty you’re referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/87 "2012-02-10T14:52:31Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > America is hardly in the position of primitive nomads in harsh conditions where the nonproductive need to be pushed away from the food pile. There is plenty to go around. > If someone is working what is the point of denying them a living wage? …because businesses can’t afford it? Because if the unskilled drew a living wage, they’d soon find their factory boarded up? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/88 "2012-02-10T14:55:53Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > …because businesses can’t afford it? Because if the unskilled drew a living wage, they’d soon find their factory boarded up? I doubt a lot of factories would close up, but I’d guess Dunkin Donuts and McDonalds might not fare so well. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/89 "2012-02-10T14:59:08Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > …because businesses can’t afford it? Because if the unskilled drew a living wage, they’d soon find their factory boarded up? So, in your worldview, keeping businesses alive is more important than keeping people alive? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/90 "2012-02-10T15:04:33Z")
> [@Invisible\_Chimp](#): > > So, in your worldview, keeping businesses alive is more important than keeping people alive? Welcome to the Republican Party! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/91 "2012-02-10T15:10:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, but since no one is entitled to eat without working, I regard that as simply the natural state of affairs, a consequence of the natural world. Sixty thousand years ago, man facing a hungry sabertooth tiger did not have recourse to the argument that the contest was unequal, and that the sabertooth had more muscles and sharper claws than the man did. What was necessary to that battle was to win it in fact: use our abilities to our advantage by crafting tools and thus defeat the sharpest-clawed creature with even sharper, longer-reaching, and more potent weapons. > > Of course the job market is not voluntary. And for the employer, too, if he fails to attract and keep a decent work force, his business will ultimately be swept away by others that do. None of it is voluntary in the sense you propose; mankind does not live in the Garden of Eden with our every wish fulfilled. Physical laws of the universe control the situation, and they dictate that food and shelter do not appear out of the sky. They must be taken from the world by physical effort. So basically you see the marketplace as akin to the jungle, with people preying on one another like wild animals. Me too! I assume you disapprove of and deplore this state of affairs, as do I. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/92 "2012-02-10T15:31:05Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Whaaa? Did you mean to say “adamantly against maiking it easier to employ people?” Why would anyone be in favor of making it more difficult? I was being facetious. Inflating wages makes it more difficult to employ people. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/93 "2012-02-10T15:39:20Z")
> [@Invisible\_Chimp](#): > > So, in your worldview, keeping businesses alive is more important than keeping people alive? In the idiocy of the liberal worldview, businesses are considered opposed to people. In reality, they’re all on the same team. Keeping businesses alive is the same thing as keeping people alive. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/94 "2012-02-10T15:52:24Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Yes, it’s right. People should not be forced to give money to other people, and if the other person doesn’t or can’t bring anything to the table, why should they expect more money? This guy doesn’t make any money because he’s not worth very much. Is his company to blame for his lack of value? To be blunt: If you don’t give him money now, his kids will take your money later. Don’t moralize about it–think practically. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/95 "2012-02-10T15:55:15Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Keeping businesses alive is the same thing as keeping people alive. There are several things wrong with this statement. Since keeping business alive often requires keeping some people at slave-wage level, your statement only works if “staying alive” must equal, for many people, “living like a slave.” Are you okay with that equation? Moreover, keeping businesses alive often involves not just exploiting people, but literally killing them through overwork, starvation, job hazards, etc. In that sense, your statement isn’t even problematically true: It’s plainly false. Keeping businesses alive is just _one_ way to keep _some_ people alive, the majority of whom will (if “keep business alive” is the only mantra) live pretty piss-poor versions of “life.” They’re not the same thing. One is a means to the other–and a far from ideal means. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/96 "2012-02-10T15:58:26Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > …because businesses can’t afford it? Because if the unskilled drew a living wage, they’d soon find their factory boarded up? Here you say outright that we _must not_ allow most people to draw a living wage. A _Living Wage_ is something you say we have to _deny_ to most people. Do you know what “living wage” means? Why do you seem to have an attitude that this “fact” you think is true is a-ok and unproblematic? If you think it’s true that the majority of people have to be denied the means to live, why isn’t your attitude one of despair? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/97 "2012-02-10T16:00:14Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > In the idiocy of the liberal worldview, businesses are considered opposed to people. You mean, “In my ridiculous caricature of the liberal worldview” etc? > [@](#): > > In reality, they’re all on the same team. Keeping businesses alive is the same thing as keeping people alive. Do you suppose it is even _possible_ that there are too many businesses? Presumably, you accept that we can have, for instance, too many razors, or too little pollution. There is some social optimum here. It is even possible, in your mind, that we could have too many businesses? That businesses exist which don’t serve society and act as an efficiency drain? Do you believe it is possible that businesses which don’t pay a living wage to their full-time employees are being subsidized by other areas, and actually _could_ pay a living wage if those were removed? For instance, totally hypothetically, if we imposed a living wage criterion, but eliminated unemployment and social assistance programs like WIC and such, could the market handle it? Obviously I can’t speak for all liberals everywhere, but those I am familiar with don’t feel that businesses are opposed to people at all. Rather, businesses are like all social institutions, and should exist so long as they serve the public good. If they fail in that capacity, they should change for the better, or cease to exist. If a government program failed to serve the public good, there’d be no question that it should be changed or removed. But government is just one among many institutions. If Wal-Mart can only exist the way it does because of welfare, and _you_ want to eliminate welfare, is it fair for me to say your “conservative worldview is opposed to business”? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/98 "2012-02-10T16:09:06Z")
From time to time, those at the tippy-top of the socio-economic heap need reminded that they can be dragged from their mansions and killed. See France ca. 1789 and Russia ca. 1917 for two well known examples. Call it bribery, call it rewarding sloth, call it moral cowardice if it pleases you, but it is money well spent on the part of the Haves (especially the Have-really-really-a-lots) to keep the rabble fed, clothed, and happy enough that their resentment and anger do not grow to unmanageable proportions. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who was a Patrician born to wealth, understood this very clearly. He threw the poor enough crumbs to make them largely unreceptive to communist and fascist demagoguery. The Haves remained the Haves, even if they might have had to do without a seventh gold-plated toilet with automatic asswiper aboard their back-up yacht. His successors in the halls of power would do well to study his example. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/99 "2012-02-10T16:33:27Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > …because businesses can’t afford it? Because if the unskilled drew a living wage, they’d soon find their factory boarded up? The average wage used to be much higher. The minimum wage also used to be higher. The average wage for executives used to be much lower. Union membership used to be much higher. There have always been closures, but were there more back then? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/100 "2012-02-10T16:45:33Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > America is hardly in the position of primitive nomads in harsh conditions where the nonproductive need to be pushed away from the food pile. There is plenty to go around. > If someone is working what is the point of denying them a living wage? yes, there is plenty to go around, but only because people have worked to make it so, and they did this work because they would gain rewards from. Note this this is not the same as, “…they would be given rewards from it.” These rewards are not doled out by some committee; they arise as a natural consequence of the actions taken. If we impose a system where the rewards are decided by some other method, such as a group of people deciding what a particular work effort “deserves” then we make a grave misstep: we reward “persuading the committee” instead of “creating the wealth.” You propose this because part of you feels quite confident that no matter how much you take from the productive, they will continue to produce to benefit the less productive. I don’t agree. I think our progress as a race has come from the fierce competition that exists as a natural consequence of the world, and we should not try to re-direct it otherwise; doing so will inevitably blunt our further progress. It’s funny: the same people that are outraged when right-wing religious nuts try to stop teaching Darwin seem to ignore his lessons completely in the actual world. It’s great to teach our students that the advanced life we have on the planet today resulted from harsh conditions and competition, but we shouldn’t actually conclude that those conditions produce anything of value for humanity’s existence and progress. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306.md?page=6)