# Living wage? We don't need no stinkin' living wage! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306 "2012-02-09T13:41:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/121 "2012-02-10T18:53:45Z")
> [@biddee](#): > > But if you care about your workforce, they will care about your company. I’m pretty sure my company could find someone who could do my job for less money but they are invested in me, they gave me a raise after being here a year as well as an end of year bonus and the company is not even doing that well. > > The fact that they treat me well means that I am less likely to quit and am going to be incredibly loyal to my company. I will also do my job at 110% and more. Of course, the cost of replacing you is factored into what the company considers your worth. Especially at large companies, much of your job is simply knowing how to get shit done at that company. A friend of mine who worked as an engineer for a large electronics company in Silicon Valley once summed it up very nicely when he said: _I don’t really know that much about how to make these products anymore, but I know how to get things done around here, and that’s what makes me valuable._ ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/122 "2012-02-10T19:00:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > On the other hand, when we see resumes from people who jump ship every two years or so, they go right in the recycling bin. You might know you are doing it for more money but it looks like you can’t hack the job - and why would we hire someone who will leave in a few years? > Far better to understand the job and get a skill which makes it more painful for them to fire you than keep you. It is not a guarantee, so be aware of the status of your company and division, and definitely jump ship if trouble is brewing. In my industry at least we know these things, and no one thinks badly of someone leaving a company in trouble. Yep, that is still looking out for number one… You. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/123 "2012-02-10T19:11:42Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > How much responsibility can I take for what others judge as “desirable”? Plenty. Look at charts [like this](http://www.myplan.com/careers/top-ten/highest-paying.php). Get skills that position you for one of these jobs. Profit. Its like the South Park thing with step 2 filled in. When I was in college I was a writing major briefly. My dad kept showing me similar charts. I eventually switched to computer science because I wanted a job that paid money. It worked. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/124 "2012-02-10T19:33:52Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Here you say outright that we _must not_ allow most people to draw a living wage. A _Living Wage_ is something you say we have to _deny_ to most people. > > Do you know what “living wage” means? > > Why do you seem to have an attitude that this “fact” you think is true is a-ok and unproblematic? If you think it’s true that the majority of people have to be denied the means to live, why isn’t your attitude one of despair? Yes, I know what “living wage” means. What I don’t know is why you think everyone should get one. Where did I say we have to deny it to “most” people? And where did I say it was a-ok? It’s a fact of life that if we sit around doing nothing, we’ll starve or freeze. We have to eat. In order to do that, we have to make food. If we don’t make food, we have to trade for it. And making food or tradeable goods is hard. It unfortunately takes effort to stay alive. I could go on wailing about the unfairness of it all, but noting how solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short life is is just so…1651. > [@Frylock](#): > > Moreover, keeping businesses alive often involves not just exploiting people, but literally killing them through overwork, starvation, job hazards, etc. In that sense, your statement isn’t even problematically true: It’s plainly false. Wow. People are dying out there. They’re dropping dead on the production floors left and right. Starving to death, too. Slaves, I tell ya. > [@erislover](#): > > Do you suppose it is even _possible_ that there are too many businesses? Presumably, you accept that we can have, for instance, too many razors, or too little pollution. There is some social optimum here. It is even possible, in your mind, that we could have too many businesses? That businesses exist which don’t serve society and act as an efficiency drain? Yes, it’s possible. It’s called “an employee’s market”, and in such conditions, we don’t have people like our OP goon bitching about not being able to quit. > [@Frylock](#): > > Working for an agreed wage because you and your family will die otherwise is hardly “liberty.” 😕 But we all work for an agreed wage because we’d starve otherwise. All animals everywhere do so, in one form or another. Unless you’re going to modify our genes to manufacture food from sunlight, everyone has to work to avoid starvation. So are none of us free? Is this news to anyone? ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/125 "2012-02-10T19:37:21Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > The minimum wage went down? Did I miss a memo? I mean it’s _possible_ that a state or two lowered a minimum wage, but I sure didn’t hear about it. Anyone have a cite for that? I personally believe that minimum wages should be higher, but I don’t think they have been reduced. The minimum wage is not indexed. Every year it doesn’t go up, it effectively goes down. The value of the minimum wage peaked in the late 1960s. I wasn’t around back then, so someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m under the impression that the economy wasn’t tanking back then. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/126 "2012-02-10T19:38:29Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Plenty. Look at charts [like this](http://www.myplan.com/careers/top-ten/highest-paying.php). Get skills that position you for one of these jobs. Profit. Its like the South Park thing with step 2 filled in. No, that is not me taking responsibility for what others find desirable, that’s me reacting to what others find desirable. My point is that you seem to think that everyone can be skilled at work others find desirable. But the market won’t bear that. If everyone had those skills, a large proportion of them would _still_ be garbage collectors, despite their skills–because that is what the market will bear. “Just get desirable skills, and if you don’t, you’re not being responsible” is a terribly short-sighted thing to say. > [@](#): > > When I was in college I was a writing major briefly. My dad kept showing me similar charts. I eventually switched to computer science because I wanted a job that paid money. It worked. It works for now. ---
**Author:** ![YoudNeverGuess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a587f6/32.png) [@YoudNeverGuess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoudNeverGuess)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/127 "2012-02-10T19:38:51Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Those gains in productivity came, in substantial part, by automating tasks formerly performed by unskilled labor, such as pick list fulfillment. Broseph should be thankful he’s got a job at all, and should be mindful that the day is nigh upon us when his position goes the way of elevator operators. > > Say, let’s find all those out-of-work elevator operators, put them back in elevators, and pay them a living wage of $40K! Who’s with me?!? **Voyager** , **rogerbox** , **erislover** , I’m gonna need you guys to cover payroll for the first little bit, but I’m sure you won’t mind—I know you can’t bear the thought of those poor elevator operators struggling. So why not automate away all ‘unskilled’ work? And then everyone can upskill and we can all be white-collar executives earning great money. Everyone wins. :rolleyes: There will always be work that is regarded as ‘unskilled’ (or just a less desireable occupation for anyone who has a choice) just as there will always be people on the bottom rung of society with little opportunity to rise, maybe due to lack of ability. But they’re still human beings. And if the people in more powerful positions treat them with contempt and make their lives unbearable they will eventually fight back with whatever means they have available. You’re living in a dream world if you think the poor can be just swept under the carpet or will just go away. It’s called damage limitation. Remember how revolutions start. Remember Karl Marx’s call ‘Workers of the world unite. **You have nothing to lose but your chains** ’. Does that type of scenario strike fear into your heart? Because if it does, and you have the means to prevent it through giving them something more to lose than ‘chains’ then the prudent, pragmatic, sensible and ironically self-serving thing to do is to make sure your society doesn’t become that unequal. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/128 "2012-02-10T19:40:57Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > 😕 But we all work for an agreed wage because we’d starve otherwise. If what you said were true, this wouldn’t prove anything–my reply would simply be “then none of us have liberty.” But what you’re saying isn’t true. I could be working at a much worse job. I work where I do not because my family would starve otherwise, but because this is the kind of work I enjoy. I’m privileged. I have liberty. Most people aren’t (and I could well stop being privileged in that sense one day), and most people don’t. > [@](#): > > All animals everywhere do so, in one form or another. The relevance of this is completely unclear. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/129 "2012-02-10T19:44:47Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > The minimum wage is not indexed. Every year it doesn’t go up, it effectively goes down. The value of the minimum wage peaked in the late 1960s. I wasn’t around back then, so someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m under the impression that the economy wasn’t tanking back then. Yes, the inflation adjusted MW was about $10/hour in the mid 60s. Very briefly. But how many low wage factories were there in China in the 1960s? Do you want to drive more jobs there? Or is it that you prefer putting people out of work with automation. When you drive up the cost of labor, you make it more desirable to either have that job done somewhere else, or have a machine do it. Hey, I’m all for self-checkout at the stores myself! ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/130 "2012-02-10T19:45:13Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > “Just get desirable skills, and if you don’t, you’re not being responsible” is a terribly short-sighted thing to say. Yes, if everyone went out and became a doctor, the pay for doctors would go down. Fortunately, not everyone is doing that. There are more than enough people who don’t bother getting useful skills and just decide to complain about the system. If you aren’t one of those people, you will do fine. I feel very confident about my long-term prospects. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/131 "2012-02-10T19:47:54Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Yes, if everyone went out and became a doctor, the pay for doctors would go down. Fortunately, not everyone is doing that. There are more than enough people who don’t bother getting useful skills and just decide to complain about the system. If you aren’t one of those people, you will do fine. I feel very confident about my long-term prospects. You’re talking about how to take advantage of the system as it is. The thread, however, is about how to make the system a better one than it is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/132 "2012-02-10T19:48:40Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > My point is that you seem to think that everyone can be skilled at work others find desirable. But the market won’t bear that. If everyone had those skills, a large proportion of them would _still_ be garbage collectors, despite their skills–because that is what the market will bear. As I said upthread, why not take care of those people as a society, instead of making their employers do it. We’re not talking about a large percentage of the workforce here. > [@](#): > > “Just get desirable skills, and if you don’t, you’re not being responsible” is a terribly short-sighted thing to say. I’d say it’s a very long-sighted thing to say. It’s short-sighted to think that you’re going to get ahead by doing nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/133 "2012-02-10T20:03:45Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > No, that is not me taking responsibility for what others find desirable, that’s me reacting to what others find desirable. > > My point is that you seem to think that everyone can be skilled at work others find desirable. But the market won’t bear that. If everyone had those skills, a large proportion of them would _still_ be garbage collectors, despite their skills–because that is what the market will bear. > > “Just get desirable skills, and if you don’t, you’re not being responsible” is a terribly short-sighted thing to say. > > It works for now. There are 300 jobs on that list. And many of them are fields of study where you develop transferable skills. No skill set is going to guarantee you a job for life, but continuing to invest in yourself over the course of your life gives you a better chance than working in a retailers distribution warehouse and complaining that you don’t make much more than minimum wage. I was a Netware engineer. Had a stayed a Netware engineer I’d current be getting paid nothing. Although in 1988 it was one hell of a skill to have. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/134 "2012-02-10T20:10:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Just as people who take a job which pays too little when there are other options might have to suck up, employers who sign union contracts which they think pay too much should suck it up too. > Employers love the free market at times like the present, when unemployment drives down wages. They hated it during the Bubble when wages got driven up. I don’t care who hates it. It’s still the most efficient way of allocating wages to people. And I agree: an employer that signs a union contract should suck it up… until the time comes to renegotiate that contract. I absolutely respect the right of people to band together and bargain collectively. My biggest gripe with unions is when their methods of persuasion go beyond simply saying, “If you don’t agree, we all walk away.” Unions use two types of methods to encourage compliance with their demands that I don’t like: one’s legal and one isn’t. When replacement workers are assaulted, have their tires slashed, have eggs thrown on their cars by striking workers, the union has left the realm of sweet reason and I can’t support their tactics. The second area is protected under law and is thus legal, but I think the law is unwise: when an employer cannot fire striking workers even though they fail to report for duty and perform their jobs, the law has unfairly tied the hands of the employer. Note that when the employer is forbidden from firing striking workers because of a clause in the extant union contract, I have no problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/135 "2012-02-10T20:33:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As I said upthread, why not take care of those people as a society, instead of making their employers do it. We’re not talking about a large percentage of the workforce here. I have to admit that I’m not certain of your personal opinion of welfare/food stamps/medicaid, despite your generally right-wing/moderate political views, but as a poster arguing from the right-wing, market-based side here, this is a little disingenuous. The party that most represents your political beliefs is adamantly opposed to any possible expansion of the social safety net, and actually advocates for the contraction of same. It’s also adamantly opposed to the taxes that would fund that expanded safety net. You don’t have a lot of room to maneuver in that particular political space. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/136 "2012-02-10T20:44:14Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I have to admit that I’m not certain of your personal opinion of welfare/food stamps/medicaid, despite your generally right-wing/moderate political views, but as a poster arguing from the right-wing, market-based side here, this is a little disingenuous. The party that most represents your political beliefs is adamantly opposed to any possible expansion of the social safety net, and actually advocates for the contraction of same. It’s also adamantly opposed to the taxes that would fund that expanded safety net. You don’t have a lot of room to maneuver in that particular political space. For the record, I tend to vote more D than R these days. But that’s not really the point. The point is that all wage supports (minimum or living wages or whatever you want to call them) are a just a thinly disguised tax/welfare plan. The one advantage they have is virtually no overhead cost, but the big disadvantage they have is distorting the market and hiding the true cost of the program. My preference would be to leave the market alone to do what it does best, and use the general fund to supply a safety net. I don’t see any reason that, given a sufficiently robust safety net, that Democrats or even Progressives couldn’t buy into that. Unless there is a hidden desire to punish evil employers by making them pay more than they want to. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/137 "2012-02-10T20:49:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As I said upthread, why not take care of those people as a society, instead of making their employers do it. Sure, I’m okay with that. Making employers do it may be the most efficient method, though, for all I know. > [@](#): > > I’d say it’s a very long-sighted thing to say. It’s short-sighted to think that you’re going to get ahead by doing nothing. This comment addresses what an individual should do given the current system. However the thread is about what the system should do to improve itself. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/138 "2012-02-10T20:50:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t care who hates it. It’s still the most efficient way of allocating wages to people. > > And I agree: an employer that signs a union contract should suck it up… until the time comes to renegotiate that contract. > > I absolutely respect the right of people to band together and bargain collectively. My biggest gripe with unions is when their methods of persuasion go beyond simply saying, “If you don’t agree, we all walk away.” > > Unions use two types of methods to encourage compliance with their demands that I don’t like: one’s legal and one isn’t. > > When replacement workers are assaulted, have their tires slashed, have eggs thrown on their cars by striking workers, the union has left the realm of sweet reason and I can’t support their tactics. > > The second area is protected under law and is thus legal, but I think the law is unwise: when an employer cannot fire striking workers even though they fail to report for duty and perform their jobs, the law has unfairly tied the hands of the employer. Note that when the employer is forbidden from firing striking workers because of a clause in the extant union contract, I have no problem with that. **Bricker** , can you email a mod to have your name changed to **Bricker (and Chessic Sense)**? It’d save me a bunch of time. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/139 "2012-02-10T20:51:33Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > There are 300 jobs on that list. And many of them are fields of study where you develop transferable skills. No skill set is going to guarantee you a job for life, but continuing to invest in yourself over the course of your life gives you a better chance than working in a retailers distribution warehouse and complaining that you don’t make much more than minimum wage. > > I was a Netware engineer. Had a stayed a Netware engineer I’d current be getting paid nothing. Although in 1988 it was one hell of a skill to have. I agree that as the system is (and almost any concievable system could be) designed, people with more difficult skills will tend to have better jobs. I do not understand the relevance of the comment, however. It seems to be addressing the question what an individual should do given the current system. I believe the thread is instead about what the system itself should look like. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306/140 "2012-02-10T20:56:24Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I guess I just see this differently from a lot of you. Maybe it’s because I grew up in a working class family in a working class neighborhood. > > I saw my father come home dead tired every day. He may have been “unskilled” but he worked _hard_ and that sure as hell should count for something. He earned every cent of his union wages. His union medical insurance probably saved my life. > > The gentleman in this article probably should try to unionize. However, he lives in a “right to work” state which can make that difficult. I commend your father for working hard. It doesn’t mean he made money for the company he worked for. It would be nice if the mere act of hard work generated profit but that is not the case. If the company isn’t making a huge profit then organizing a union probably isn’t the best solution at this point. The unemployment rate is high and states are bidding against each other to attract new businesses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-wage-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-living-wage/612306.md?page=8)