# Living while black in America **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 9, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611 "2018-07-09T21:17:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/563 "2018-08-06T20:46:04Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > **iiandyiiii** what is this thread about again: Black life in America or how **Octopus** makes everything about him? In fairness, having to put up with smarmy assholes like \*\*Octopus \*\*is probably a big part of living while black in America. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/564 "2018-08-06T23:13:10Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So where is the so-called upsetness? I’ll admit you’ve surprised me. I was thinking you’d be upset if you had to admit your attitudes about race are wrong and you need to be enlightened. I’m glad to see you’re willing to admit you’ve been wrong and are open to change. So take that first step and publicly acknowledge you have a problem; that you’re a racist and you want to stop being one. You can do it here or start a new thread. I’m sure there are plenty of people on this board who will be happy to help guide you through to a new way of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/565 "2018-08-07T02:07:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ll admit you’ve surprised me. I was thinking you’d be upset if you had to admit your attitudes about race are wrong and you need to be enlightened. I’m glad to see you’re willing to admit you’ve been wrong and are open to change. > > So take that first step and publicly acknowledge you have a problem; that you’re a racist and you want to stop being one. You can do it here or start a new thread. I’m sure there are plenty of people on this board who will be happy to help guide you through to a new way of thinking. I actually treat people as individuals. I’m not sure I need to do anything more. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/566 "2018-08-07T02:17:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I actually treat people as individuals. I’m not sure I need to do anything more. You do. But it’s not going to happen unless you’re willing to try, which you apparently are not. When you said you wanted to be enlightened I didn’t think you meant it. But I felt I should provisionally take you at your word and offer to help. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/567 "2018-08-07T03:29:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You do. But it’s not going to happen unless you’re willing to try, which you apparently are not. > > When you said you wanted to be enlightened I didn’t think you meant it. But I felt I should provisionally take you at your word and offer to help. Aside from treating people as individuals what do you propose? I’m not about to turn into a self-loathing apologist just to be PC. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/568 "2018-08-07T03:42:21Z")
Well, speaking up when you see injustice (and I’m not talking about just something “PC”, BTW) would help. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/569 "2018-08-07T04:33:52Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > … what is this thread about again: Black life in America or how **Octopus** makes everything about him? Can’t you people just stop yourselves from engaging? This was an interesting thread and could be again. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/570 "2018-08-07T05:26:19Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Can’t you people just stop yourselves from engaging? This was an interesting thread and could be again. When in the history of the internet has that ever worked? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/571 "2018-08-07T05:31:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Aside from treating people as individuals what do you propose? I’m not about to turn into a self-loathing apologist just to be PC. Nobody is asking you to. The fact that you think that the only alternative to being a racist is to be a self-hating apologist is one of the things you need to overcome. It’s not a zero-sum game. Making things better for black people does not make things worse for white people. There’s no competition between the races that requires one race to win and all other races to lose. There’s no necessity for any race to be “on top” because there’s no need to have such a top. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/572 "2018-08-07T07:33:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Nobody is asking you to. The fact that you think that the only alternative to being a racist is to be a self-hating apologist is one of the things you need to overcome. > > It’s not a zero-sum game. Making things better for black people does not make things worse for white people. There’s no competition between the races that requires one race to win and all other races to lose. There’s no necessity for any race to be “on top” because there’s no need to have such a top. Ok. I already agree with all that. I’m all for treating people justly. Not sure what the problem is. What I am saying is that there are ways to win people to your side and the methods Huey and some others employ are most likely not the right method. I sometimes give iiandyiiii a bit of a hard time but I think his method of actual communication works better than retaliatory racism. The problem is that many on this board deliberately distort such messages from those who don’t agree 100% with a message and the precise delivery of that message. It’s counterproductive, this strict ideological purity, and it turns normal people off. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/573 "2018-08-07T13:11:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s counterproductive, this strict ideological purity, and it turns normal people off. Before we take your advice on how to communicate, could you document your persuasiveness by listing the people on this board you’ve convinced to change their opinions? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/574 "2018-08-07T16:10:26Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Before we take your advice on how to communicate, could you document your persuasiveness by listing the people on this board you’ve convinced to change their opinions? 🙂 On this board? Probably none. But a peculiar and tiny audience such as this is not reflective of society as a whole now is it? So let’s flip the question around and ask you folks how effective the Left’s modern crusade for ideological purity is progressing and how well nagging and shaming people for every little ‘micro aggression ‘ and sin are working? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/575 "2018-08-07T17:20:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > When in the history of the internet has that ever worked? Sigh, never yet, and still not apparently. This is why we can’t have nice things. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/576 "2018-08-07T17:37:23Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I think a big part of the problem is what is needed out out of us white people is humility and introspection yet what many of us hear is we need to genuflect and prostrate ourselves at the feet of black people for some sort of original sin that we have been born with simply for being born white. Thank you. Earlier in the thread when discussing the “you’re white, therefore you are a racist” idea, the concept of original sin did indeed come to mind. I may have my faults, but the idea that I am guilty for what I am rather than anything I may or may not have done is repellent. And yet, that’s an assertion I keep hearing. Why is it that [cracked.com](http://cracked.com) always seems to have something relevant? Here’s yet another essay from them: [5 helpful answers to society’s most uncomfortable questions](http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-helpful-answers-to-societys-most-uncomfortable-questions/) The entire essay is relevant to this discussion, but I remembered it in particular for question #2, “Why do I get blamed for things my grandparents did?”. The answer delves into the difference between **blame** and **responsibility** : > [@cracked.com](#): > > There is a difference between being “to blame” for something and being “responsible” for it. It’s easy to see the difference in some situations (i.e., you’re not to _blame_ for the snow, but you are _responsible_ for shoveling your driveway), but not in others. For instance, if you tell one of my fellow white people that we’re responsible for helping fix social justice issues, they’ll say, “But I’ve never discriminated against anyone!” And they’ll mean it. This is confusing because, as kids, we were taught that you clean up your own messes, and it’s easy to accidentally expand that to: “You _only_ clean up your own messes.” It then becomes natural to say things such as "Why are you talking to me about racism when I’ve never owned slaves? Some years ago I saw a man walking through a train station, and when he spotted a piece of trash lying on the ground, he picked it up and put it in the nearest trash can. He wasn’t to blame for that piece of trash being there, and would have been rightly annoyed if some super-zealous environmentalist had been shouting at him all morning about how he was to blame for all of the litter in the area. But he clearly took it upon himself to act when the opportunity arose, i.e. he took _responsibility_ for fixing the problem (or at least one small piece of it). Not out of a sense of blame or guilt, but, I dunno, maybe out of a sense of membership in his city, which maybe fostered a sense of commitment to making things better for his fellow citizens. Just guessing, really; for all I know, maybe his dad used to beat the shit out of him for not cleaning his room, and now he’s OCD about trash whenever he sees it. So yeah, if you want to talk to me about how I came from a white, middle-class upbringing that forgave me some significant mistakes along the way and gave me access to a bunch of good opportunities that allowed my hard work to propel me even further upward into the good life I enjoy today; how the same forgiveness and opportunities (for hard work to result in real advancement in life) aren’t available to everyone out there; and how my membership in humanity comes with a responsibility to help make the world a better place, we can talk. But if you just want to call me a racist simply because I’m white and I live in a nice neighborhood and drive a nice car, then I’m going to stop listening pretty early in the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/577 "2018-08-07T20:21:50Z")
Nice distinction between blame/guilt and responsibility, one that deserves emphasis. Collective guilt is a bad idea: individuals are guilty or innocent. Collective responsibility is another matter. > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > But if you just want to call me a racist simply because I’m white and I live in a nice neighborhood and drive a nice car, then I’m going to stop listening pretty early in the discussion. Anti-racism is a process not a destination. Given our hardwiring towards tribal thinking, anti-racism will necessarily involve some introspection. Which explains why those who protest the loudest about not being racist generally are. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/578 "2018-08-07T20:38:07Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Some years ago I saw a man walking through a train station, and when he spotted a piece of trash lying on the ground, he picked it up and put it in the nearest trash can. He wasn’t to blame for that piece of trash being there, and would have been rightly annoyed if some super-zealous environmentalist had been shouting at him all morning about how he was to blame for all of the litter in the area. But he clearly took it upon himself to act when the opportunity arose, i.e. he took _responsibility_ for fixing the problem (or at least one small piece of it). Good for him, but if I dump a lot of trash in my own backyard, and then declare that we are all responsible for cleaning it up, the example loses force. Black illegitimacy is not caused by racism. Black fathers abandoning their children is not caused by racism. Black people committing crimes in their own neighborhoods is not caused by racism. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Which explains why those who protest the loudest about not being racist generally are. How quietly do I have to protest before you will believe me? If I shut down a freeway, will that convince you? Or how about if I don’t protest at all, but just laugh at you? Would that help? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/579 "2018-08-07T20:58:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Good for him, but if I dump a lot of trash in my own backyard, and then declare that we are all responsible for cleaning it up, the example loses force. Black illegitimacy is not caused by racism. Black fathers abandoning their children is not caused by racism. Black people committing crimes in their own neighborhoods is not caused by racism. Than what, in your opinion, does cause it? Why do black people have illegitimate children more than white people, abandon their children more than white people, and commit crimes more than white people? Is it because black people are fundamentally different than white people? Well guess what? Believing that black people are fundamentally different than white people is racism. But maybe you don’t believe that. Maybe you believe black people and white people are not fundamentally different. Black people and white people are pretty much the same. It’s just the black people live in a situation that causes them to have higher rates of illegitimacy and broken homes and crime. White people living in that situation would produce the same results. And what would you call a situation that does bad things to black people and doesn’t do bad things to white people? The name for that is racism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/580 "2018-08-07T21:01:36Z")
Unmarried births for black women has gone down drastically over the last few decades. I showed the statistics for that in another thread, and yet this line is still used to attack and denigrate black women even by participants in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/581 "2018-08-07T21:03:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Ok. I already agree with all that. I’m all for treating people justly. Not sure what the problem is. The problem is you don’t treat people justly. You treat people in the manner that you think is just. But your ideas of what is just is distorted by your views on race. You have a different standard for what if just for black people than you have for what is just for white people. > [@octopus](#): > > The problem is that many on this board deliberately distort such messages from those who don’t agree 100% with a message and the precise delivery of that message. It’s counterproductive, this strict ideological purity, and it turns normal people off. Again, you have a distorted view. You measure normality by your own standards. You assume incorrectly that what you believe is what normal people believe. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/582 "2018-08-07T21:03:18Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Anti-racism is a process not a destination. Given our hardwiring towards tribal thinking, anti-racism will necessarily involve some introspection. Which explains why those who protest the loudest about not being racist generally are. Cracked comes through again: [5 reasons you can’t convince anyone that they’re racist](http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-reasons-you-cant-convince-anyone-that-theyre-racist/) This one highlights where earnest discussions about race and racism go off the rails, where participants’ conversational intentions and meanings get misinterpreted, and how we might work to avoid those pitfalls in conversations about race. A sample: > [@cracked](#): > > This puts Natasha in a scenario we’ll call the Racist’s Dilemma. It’s like the Prisoner’s Dilemma but for potential racists, where the choices look like this: (1) admit you did something racist and be forced to do a walk of shame and get looked down on by all the “PC people,” or (2) stonewall as hard as you can and maybe they’ll go away. In Racist Prison, everyone was framed. You can see why people often go for (2). If you can change choice (1) in their mind to “stop doing it, say sorry, and everything goes back to normal more or less,” then (2) will look a lot less attractive. Another example of people talking past each other: > [@cracked](#): > > Natasha will keep basically shouting, “I’m not a Racism Golem!” and Yvonne will keep insisting, “The thing you just said is clearly racist!” but the translation that happens in her brain is, “I’m not racist!” and “Yes you are!” They sound like they’re arguing about the same point, but they’re not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611.md?page=30)