# Living while black in America **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 9, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611 "2018-07-09T21:17:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/583 "2018-08-07T21:06:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Black illegitimacy is not caused by racism. Black fathers abandoning their children is not caused by racism. Let me guess–you think it’s genetic? > [@](#): > > Black people committing crimes in their own neighborhoods is not caused by racism. I think people of every race commit crimes in their own neighborhoods. Not sure why you brought race into it. (That’s my little joke; I am sure why you brought race into it.) ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/584 "2018-08-07T22:18:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Than what, in your opinion, does cause it? Why do black people have illegitimate children more than white people, abandon their children more than white people, and commit crimes more than white people? Is it because black people are fundamentally different than white people? > > Well guess what? Believing that black people are fundamentally different than white people is racism. > > But maybe you don’t believe that. Maybe you believe black people and white people are not fundamentally different. Black people and white people are pretty much the same. It’s just the black people live in a situation that causes them to have higher rates of illegitimacy and broken homes and crime. White people living in that situation would produce the same results. > > And what would you call a situation that does bad things to black people and doesn’t do bad things to white people? The name for that is racism. +1 ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/585 "2018-08-07T23:10:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Black illegitimacy is not caused by racism. Black fathers abandoning their children is not caused by racism. Black people committing crimes in their own neighborhoods is not caused by racism. There is a commercial that I really like, not because it’s zippy or entertaining, but because of one message in it: “The world in which we live equally distributes talent, but it doesn’t equally distribute opportunity…” The issues that you cite are largely due to lack of economic opportunities. You think that every individual who had a child outside of marriage, every father who did not take care of his children, every person who committed a crime in his own neighborhood, had the same opportunities to choose his fate as you did. It is not economic determinism to understand that not just a poor background but persistent economic discrimination will have these kinds of effects. You can refuse to think about these factors, but that doesn’t make them any less real. Individual responsibility is important. Open doors are also important. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/586 "2018-08-08T01:50:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Than what, in your opinion, does cause it? Why do black people have illegitimate children more than white people, abandon their children more than white people, and commit crimes more than white people? Is it because black people are fundamentally different than white people? > > Well guess what? Believing that black people are fundamentally different than white people is racism. > > But maybe you don’t believe that. Maybe you believe black people and white people are not fundamentally different. Black people and white people are pretty much the same. It’s just the black people live in a situation that causes them to have higher rates of illegitimacy and broken homes and crime. White people living in that situation would produce the same results. > > And what would you call a situation that does bad things to black people and doesn’t do bad things to white people? The name for that is racism. “Fundamentally different” meaning what exactly? People get bent out of shape when religions and cultures are contrasted even though religions and cultures have real differences, right? Let’s make the assumption that there is no difference between people at all, other than skin color. Now on the subject of differing skin colors, do you think every difference in outcome between different groups is solely due to racism from white people? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/587 "2018-08-08T03:35:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > “Fundamentally different” meaning what exactly? I mean the belief that if you put an average black person and an average white person into an identical situation, you believe that the black person would do something different than what the white person would do. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/588 "2018-08-08T04:52:41Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > . . . > People get bent out of shape when religions and cultures are contrasted even though religions and cultures have real differences, right? . . . If you are saying the difference in culture between white and black America is what accounts for the differences in outcomes (an argument I am not convinced of, btw) the I would suggest that it’s mainstream American culture that needs to be changed to allow people with black culture to succeed. not the other way around as you seem to be suggesting. mc ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/589 "2018-08-08T05:04:14Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > If you are saying the difference in culture between white and black America is what accounts for the differences in outcomes (an argument I am not convinced of, btw) the I would suggest that it’s mainstream American culture that needs to be changed to allow people with black culture to succeed. not the other way around as you seem to be suggesting. > > mc I didn’t suggest any such thing. But why do you suggest that mainstream culture has to change and not black culture? Don’t you think it might be possible that parts of all cultures have room for improvement? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/590 "2018-08-08T09:00:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > “Fundamentally different” meaning what exactly? > > People get bent out of shape when religions and cultures are contrasted even though religions and cultures have real differences, right? Let’s make the assumption that there is no difference between people at all, other than skin color. Now on the subject of differing skin colors, do you think every difference in outcome between different groups is solely due to racism from white people? Maybe reading the leaked chat logs from the same statues you were arguing about saving will help you see why this is not exactly equivalent. In fact if you look through those logs you will also see them talking about those protests. I chose a page that shows how you would be “culled” in their grand vision too. **Warning** very raw language, do not click if you want to maintain the illusion that nationalists and the “soft alt-right” are just looking to hold hands. [#general | DiscordLeaks](https://discordleaks.unicornriot.ninja/discord/channel/149?&page=20) And yes, in the US the different outcomes between different groups is primarily due to racism and due to tactics that date back to Bacon’s rebellion. The bifercation of the white working poor and POC which was perpetrated by throwing POC under the bus is directly related to the situation we are in now. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/591 "2018-08-08T17:23:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > . . . do you think every difference in outcome between different groups is solely due to racism from white people? I do not. But I do think it’s the #1 reason. and it’s something we’ve baked into our American culture from the beginning. So we, as Americans, owe it to ourselves to try and do everything we can to fix it. And that starts with admitting there’s a problem. Racism exists both actively and passively. And it doesn’t matter if I’m not racist (at least I try as hard as I can to not be) or if you’re not a racist, it’s an American problem and therefore it is incumbent on ALL OF US to do something about it. > [@octopus](#): > > I didn’t suggest any such thing. I stand corrected. > [@](#): > > But why do you suggest that mainstream culture has to change and not black culture? Don’t you think it might be possible that parts of all cultures have room for improvement? Because I don’t think “black culture” (whatever that is) is to blame, even minimally, for the problems. It’s tantamount to blaming the victim, anyway: “if you’d only live your life the way whites do, you wouldn’t be in this mess!” mc ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/592 "2018-08-08T19:17:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Than what, in your opinion, does cause it? Why do black people have illegitimate children more than white people, abandon their children more than white people, and commit crimes more than white people? Is it because black people are fundamentally different than white people? Because of their toxic culture, which reinforces and perpetuates the effects of poverty and fatherlessness. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Unmarried births for black women has gone down drastically over the last few decades. I showed the statistics for that in another thread, and yet this line is still used to attack and denigrate black women even by participants in that thread. You have been corrected on this point already - the significant figure is the percentage, not the absolute number. The percentage is not going down. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/593 "2018-08-08T20:19:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because of their toxic culture, which reinforces and perpetuates the effects of poverty and fatherlessness. Which doesn’t answer the question I asked. Do you feel that there is something inherent in black people that causes them to have this toxic culture? And that white people, put in the same situation, would not have this toxic culture? ---
**Author:** ![Huey\_Freeman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/huey_freeman/32/251_2.png) [@Huey\_Freeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huey_Freeman)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/594 "2018-08-08T20:24:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because of their toxic culture, which reinforces and perpetuates the effects of poverty and fatherlessness. > Regards, > Shodan So obsessed. I know what perfume you wear. Kuchiyose No Jutsu (emphasis mine) > [@Ta-Nehisi Coates](#): > > The early american economy was built on slave labor. The Capitol and the White House were built by slaves. President James K. Polk traded slaves from the Oval Office. **The laments about “black pathology,” the criticism of black family structures by pundits and intellectuals, ring hollow in a country whose existence was predicated on the torture of black fathers, on the rape of black mothers, on the sale of black children. An honest assessment of America’s relationship to the black family reveals the country to be not its nurturer but its destroyer**. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/595 "2018-08-08T20:45:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You have been corrected on this point already - the significant figure is the percentage, not the absolute number. The percentage is not going down. > > Regards, > Shodan Who cares about percentages? I care about real people. And in real people numbers, per capita, unmarried black women are having far, far fewer babies than in past decades. This may be hard for people who just want to shit all over black people to accept, but it’s a fact, regardless of how you present the numbers. And why would you want to shit on black people for this when there’s this great American story to tell? The facts tell this good story, and I can’t imagine why anyone who doesn’t feel negatively towards black people wouldn’t want to talk about it. Seriously - isn’t the fact that far fewer unmarried black women are having babies now than in the past a good thing? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/596 "2018-08-08T20:53:43Z")
Here is the cite again: > **[Understanding Out-of-Wedlock Births in Black America](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/understanding-out-of-wedlock-births-in-black-america/277084/)** > > Revisiting the controversial Moynihan Report On a per capita basis, about half as many unmarried black women now give birth compared to 50 years ago. And it’s been going down steadily for many years, aside from a few blips. It boggles my mind why anyone would want to portray this fact negatively, or ignore it in favor of some odd percentage or ratio, unless one was invested in interpreting everything in the most negative light possible for black people. Seriously - explain to me how this fact, that unmarried births from black women have been going down for decades, is anything but a wonderful story. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/597 "2018-08-08T21:00:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Which doesn’t answer the question I asked. Do you feel that there is something inherent in black people that causes them to have this toxic culture? And that white people, put in the same situation, would not have this toxic culture? How 'bout we split the difference, and call it a toxic environment? To call it a toxic culture is to broad brush everything about a community, and make all the problems of the community entirely the community’s fault. To acknowledge that it is the environment that is toxic, we can look to solutions to improving that environment, to helping people move out of that environment. We could, even, _gasp_ acknowledge our collective culpability in creating and fostering that environment, and take responsibility for improving it. To keep repeating toxic culture is just a cop out from taking any responsibility for how our actions affect other people. Shodan earlier made an analogy that it is like someone with a trashy yard, and that it is not his responsibility to clean up someone else’s yard. What he doesn’t realize is that the reason that the yard is trashy is because he and his neighbors are always throwing their trash into that yard. Now, the homeowner is out every morning before work picking up the neighborhood’s trash, and when he gets home and before he goes to bed, he works to clean up the mess that others have made for him. Even so, even with all the work he puts in, his yard still has more trash in it than his neighbors, because they keep putting it in, and people like Shodan, while in the process of dumping their trash into this yard, claim that they deserve it, because their yard is so trashy. Now, of course, Shodan doesn’t feel as though he is contributing to the problem, because the trash that he is throwing in is minor compared to what is already there, and he absolutely doesn’t feel that it is is his responsibility to put any effort in assisting cleaning it up, because it is someone else’s yard, not his. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/598 "2018-08-08T22:13:14Z")
FYI, because it is often confusing to people why the groups running some of the recent protests can seem to honestly claim that they aren’t _Nazis_ or _white supremacists_ is because they believe that they are not. I refuse to name the author of this next bit but you can find it if you want to verify. But some of the more _optics_ obsessed groups like EI use this logic and direct source. > [@](#): > > That isn’t to say that I “hate” those people; I simply want them removed, for the greater health of all of us. There is no ethnic group that doesn’t benefit from eugenics, as for each weaker person that you eliminate a stronger one takes their place. It isn’t a moral judgment on these people of “bad” or “good” but a simple recognition of their genetic value relative to other potential people. Not that there is much of a difference in reality but it seems to work for their self-justification. Hopefully it will help fill in some of the blanks. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/599 "2018-08-08T22:27:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Here is the cite again: > > [Understanding Out-of-Wedlock Births in Black America - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/understanding-out-of-wedlock-births-in-black-america/277084/) > > On a per capita basis, about half as many unmarried black women now give birth compared to 50 years ago. And it’s been going down steadily for many years, aside from a few blips. > > It boggles my mind why anyone would want to portray this fact negatively, or ignore it in favor of some odd percentage or ratio, unless one was invested in interpreting everything in the most negative light possible for black people. Seriously - explain to me how this fact, that unmarried births from black women have been going down for decades, is anything but a wonderful story. I think a normal person would think that unmarried birth rates were high among black women from 1969-1993, with rates in the 90s per 1000. White unmarried birthrates increased steadily increased during this era from something in the low teens to something in the low 30s. Then a reversal happened. White rates plateaued, maybe dropping a bit, while black rates steadily decreased to something in the 50s by 2009. More recent data would be interesting. Leaded gasoline was phased out in 1973-1985 and finally completely banned in 1996. Lead has terrible effects on pre-natal and early childhood development; I understand that the African American community has historically higher rates of greater and lesser instances of lead poisoning. Anyway, we’d expect the effects to be felt with a 20 year lag or so; that would be 1993-2005 using rough numbers: by 2016 or maybe a little later the benefits would have tapered off. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/600 "2018-08-08T22:29:56Z")
New Mexico store clerk calls cops on a black man for being “arrogant” and “black”. > **[New Mexico store clerk caught on video calling 911 on man for being...](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/400944-new-mexico-store-clerk-caught-on-video-calling-911-on-man-for/)** > > A college student visiting New Mexico says he was racially profiled by a store clerk who was captured on camera calling the police, saying she wanted the student to the leave the store because he w… ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/601 "2018-08-08T22:54:24Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Don’t you think it might be possible that parts of all cultures have room for improvement? 😕 Tautologies are tautologies. The subject under discussion is whether you are a racist. Did you vote for our racist President? What do you think of his support for white nationalism? What do you think of the recent decision to deny legal residents citizenship if they’ve “used Obamacare”? Don’t pretend that you don’t know why these questions can serve as proxies to confirm your racism — just answer them? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/602 "2018-08-09T00:11:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who cares about percentages? I care about real people. And in real people numbers, per capita, unmarried black women are having far, far fewer babies than in past decades. > > This may be hard for people who just want to shit all over black people to accept, but it’s a fact, regardless of how you present the numbers. And why would you want to shit on black people for this when there’s this great American story to tell? The facts tell this good story, and I can’t imagine why anyone who doesn’t feel negatively towards black people wouldn’t want to talk about it. > > Seriously - isn’t the fact that far fewer unmarried black women are having babies now than in the past a good thing? It helps to look at a variety of statistics and not just ones that are most supportive of your point of view. > [@septimus](#): > > 😕 Tautologies are tautologies. The subject under discussion is whether you are a racist. Great but irrelevant. > [@](#): > > Did you vote for our racist President? What do you think of his support for white nationalism? What do you think of the recent decision to deny legal residents citizenship if they’ve “used Obamacare”? 1. No. 2. I’m not sure how much he actually supports white nationalism but I think that’s an overblown distraction anyways. 3. I think that penalizing people for using programs they are legally entitled to is nutty. > [@](#): > > Don’t pretend that you don’t know why these questions can serve as proxies to confirm your racism — just answer them? I don’t think voting for Trump or cracking down on immigration is racist. Pro race based nationalism is almost certainly racism. So, those questions aren’t actually a good proxy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611.md?page=31)