# Living while black in America **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 9, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611 "2018-07-09T21:17:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/703 "2018-08-13T18:50:40Z")
That distinction, between the bottom rung and barely above bottom, has to do a heavy lift in your hypothesis to explain the huge wealth and education disparity between blacks and Asians in the present day. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/704 "2018-08-13T19:01:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That distinction, between the bottom rung and barely above bottom, has to do a heavy lift in your hypothesis to explain the huge wealth and education disparity between blacks and Asians in the present day. Social differences, until you can pull real genetic differences for our arbitrary racial groupings this is going to stand. Apartheid like policies like red-lining and lack of opportunity explain this, when your mythological genetic racist bullshit does not. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/705 "2018-08-13T19:42:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Social differences, until you can pull real genetic differences for our arbitrary racial groupings this is going to stand. > > Apartheid like policies like red-lining and lack of opportunity explain this, when your mythological genetic racist bullshit does not. What’s the point of sexual reproduction if genes have literally 0 impact? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/706 "2018-08-13T19:43:02Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What’s the point of sexual reproduction if genes have literally 0 impact? It’s a helluva lot of fun? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/707 "2018-08-13T19:56:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What’s the point of sexual reproduction if genes have literally 0 impact? Your are conflating the instinct to reproduce with some form of racial theory. The racial theory you keep trying to invoke is merely a product of our culture, and in case of the USA a culture that intentionally threw minorities under the bus to prevent the under classes from becoming too powerful as they would be larger faction than the land owners. This is far better documented than your dreams about eugenics. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/708 "2018-08-13T20:13:04Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It’s a helluva lot of fun? Lol. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Your are conflating the instinct to reproduce with some form of racial theory. The racial theory you keep trying to invoke is merely a product of our culture, and in case of the USA a culture that intentionally threw minorities under the bus to prevent the under classes from becoming too powerful as they would be larger faction than the land owners. > > This is far better documented than your dreams about eugenics. Hmm. So you are saying there are aspects of culture that need fixing? Interesting. I thought you were the ones saying we shouldn’t blame culture. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/709 "2018-08-13T21:33:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Now, you keep saying that black people are inferior, but you then try to say that if isn’t because of their skin color, but some other nebulous thing. What is that nebulous thing that you think makes black people inferior? Identify that, and then we can determine if your reasons for thinking that black people are inferior are racists or not. > [@Shodan](#): > > Their toxic culture, which perpetuates their situation instead of encouraging them to overcome it. Somehow I missed the ramifications of this post by **Shodan** (in direct response to the question from **k9bfriender** above) – he actually admitted here that he thinks black people are inferior. In addition to calling the culture of very good people, including members of my family, “toxic”, now he’s saying they’re inferior too. I really used to think you were a pretty decent guy, **Shodan**. I don’t know what happened, but it saddens me. I’m hopeful that I’m somehow wildly misreading this, but based on your recent responses, you don’t really seem interested in correcting these kind of potential misconceptions. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/710 "2018-08-13T23:10:50Z")
Rat avatar, still no cite of any of my actual posts to support your earlier allegations, I see. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/711 "2018-08-14T07:08:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > This is a very good argument. In a vacuum, logically, it makes perfect sense. But how does it explain the points Coleman Hughes made, that Japanese Americans, and Asian Americans more broadly, faced severe governmental and societal discrimination, yet persevered to outpace even white Americans educationally and economically? What about the American citizens of Caribbean descent, who are black, outwardly indistinguishable from other African Americans, and whose ancestors were enslaved just as long as the descendants of American slaves, but who seem to do much better? (I don’t know quite how to explain it myself, so it’s an honest question and not a rhetorical one.) It takes a lot for a person to leave the country and society they were born and start a new in another country with another culture. For every person that immigrates here there are many many more that stay in the home country. The most motivated make the move so there’s no surprise when they wind up succeeding in large numbers compared to their population in the new country especially when that country has a permanent underclass. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/712 "2018-08-14T07:20:48Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > It takes a lot for a person to leave the country and society they were born and start a new in another country with another culture. For every person that immigrates here there are many many more that stay in the home country. The most motivated make the move so there’s no surprise when they wind up succeeding in large numbers compared to their population in the new country especially when that country has a permanent underclass. Isn’t this saying that there are no longer significant barricades to success for those with determination and “grit”? If so, that’s a huge change from the climate that prevailed for most of our history, and a major accomplishment in civil rights terms . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/713 "2018-08-14T09:14:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Isn’t this saying that there are no longer significant barricades to success for those with determination and “grit”? If so, that’s a huge change from the climate that prevailed for most of our history, and a major accomplishment in civil rights terms . No, it’s saying that motivation and drive are still obviously relevant factors in achievement. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/714 "2018-08-14T10:09:11Z")
‘They’re not welcome here’: Black girls on field trip told to leave gift shop > [@](#): > > Barrett told ABC News the girls were tormented by what happened, and that they were crying and distraught on the long bus ride home. The employee initially told the girls to come back with a chaperone, but even when they did, they were not allowed to stay, which is when Barrett stepped in and began recording the video, she said. > > “Meanwhile, there were other white girls unattended and playing with items and they were not asked to leave,” she added. > **['They're not welcome here': Black girls 'tormented' on field trip after being...](https://abcnews.go.com/US/theyre-black-girls-field-trip-told-leave-gift/story?id=57150379&cid=social_fb_abcn)** > > A New Jersey woman is calling for an employee of a gift shop to be fired after the employee told seven young black girls on a summer camp field trip that they were not we ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/715 "2018-08-14T12:21:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m hopeful that I’m somehow wildly misreading this, but based on your recent responses, you don’t really seem interested in correcting these kind of potential misconceptions. Yes, you are wildly misreading it. I doubt it is possible to correct it - you aren’t reading what I say. See above, where I say “because of culture” and you read “because of the color of their skin”. Some aspects of black culture in the US are toxic and dysfunctional. It is that which is mainly responsible for the disproportionate disadvantage of blacks as a group. The problem is that there are only two slots in your head where you can fit arguments about race. One is “blacks are victims of racism”, and the other is “blacks are inferior”. You try to cram any argument you see into one - if it can’t fit, you cram it into the other. _:shrugs:_ All this talk about how we have to respectfully listen to each other seems to go out the window the instant someone says anything except “it’s the white man’s fault”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/716 "2018-08-14T12:33:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Some aspects of black culture in the US are toxic and dysfunctional. It is that which is mainly responsible for the disproportionate disadvantage of blacks as a group. What shapes black culture? Why is black culture the way it is? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/717 "2018-08-14T12:34:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, you are wildly misreading it. > > I doubt it is possible to correct it - you aren’t reading what I say. See above, where I say “because of culture” and you read “because of the color of their skin”. > > Some aspects of black culture in the US are toxic and dysfunctional. It is that which is mainly responsible for the disproportionate disadvantage of blacks as a group. > > The problem is that there are only two slots in your head where you can fit arguments about race. One is “blacks are victims of racism”, and the other is “blacks are inferior”. You try to cram any argument you see into one - if it can’t fit, you cram it into the other. > > _:shrugs:_ All this talk about how we have to respectfully listen to each other seems to go out the window the instant someone says anything except “it’s the white man’s fault”. > > Regards, > Shodan Thanks for the thoughtful response instead of snark, but you’re misreading my post. You were asked “What is that nebulous thing that you think makes black people inferior?” Your answer wasn’t “I don’t think black people are inferior” – it was “Their toxic culture”. So that’s what saddens me – according to that post, you believe black people, including members of my family and millions of decent people, are inferior, because of “their toxic culture”. And that’s at least the second time in this thread you classified “black culture” – which includes the culture of many of my family members – as “toxic”. So is black culture toxic? Is the culture of my family members toxic? Are they inferior because of their toxic culture? By nothing more than reading your most recent posts in this thread, your answer to all those questions is “yes”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/718 "2018-08-14T12:42:48Z")
I’m very concerned if that attitude – which may be a very common one – is that successful and high-achieving black people cannot have an entirely authentic “black culture”. Because if some aspects of that culture are “toxic and dysfunctional”, then that seems pretty clearly to be the case, in your mind… meaning that those individual black kids who admonish their high-achieving peers about “acting white” are behaving according to that “toxic and dysfunctional” characterization of the “correct” authentic black culture, while a more positive characterization, if widely accepted, would ensure that high-achieving black people would never have a concern about not being “authentically” black in culture. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/719 "2018-08-14T13:20:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Isn’t this saying that there are no longer significant barricades to success for those with determination and “grit”? If so, that’s a huge change from the climate that prevailed for most of our history, and a major accomplishment in civil rights terms . I would say ‘yes and no’ to that. Strictly speaking, yes, it’s a change. Yes, individuals, regardless of their ancestry, can overcome long odds with sheer grit and determination. I don’t think African Americans would disagree with this. My rebuttal - and I can’t speak for African Americans, but what would I would submit - is that if you take people of any race and subject them to the same kind of perpetual underclass status that African Americans have been subjected to, we would probably see similar socioeconomic side effects. You mentioned the word ‘culture’ earlier (can’t remember if it was this specific thread or not). Yes, African American culture is a micro-culture within the larger American cultural mosaic. It is a culture that was formed out of the bonds of slavery and post-slavery apartheid. White America sought not only to weaken Black America legally, but also socially. Even after the so-called “civil rights era,” you see White Americans wanting to have nothing to do with Black America, moving from cities to the suburbs, taking jobs and tax revenue with them. Are poor performing Black students and violent Black neighborhoods solely the fault of whites? Of course not. But when a culture is systematically targeted the ways Black people have been, these are the potential consequences. This is what happens when whites deliberately refuse to educate black children for generations, in a society in which education is crucial for getting a career. This is what happens when whites criminalize people and imprison them for decades over relatively minor and nonviolent offenses. This is what happens when legal economic opportunities are stripped out of communities and replaced with illicit activities. This is what happens when people of color can’t get certain jobs because they don’t have transportation and don’t have a line of credit to get a car loan. I could go on but you get the idea. I agree that culture is a thing, and I’m reminded of that when I think of the strength of the ‘culture’ around me. Even having grown up in the company of some misfits as friends and in the family, I was still fortunate enough to grow up in a strong environment. My parents were both educated; they valued education and insist that I value education as well. Their parents never had the chance to go to college but they also nevertheless saw the value of learning skills and education because they understood its value in a capitalist, individualist society and knew how to put it to use. A major reason that they valued education is that they believed it would eventually pay dividends for them and their family. Living in a ‘free’ society, they were in a position to capitalize on their hard work and their physical and intellectual gifts. By contrast, Black people were not in that same position, which is why some can be forgiven for concluding that America’s promises of liberty and justice are a sham. When that’s your outlook, when you don’t have faith in the society to give you a fair shot, that influences things like outlook, motivation, investment in one’s future and so forth. If you, Slacker, came to the conclusion that no matter which schools you go to, no matter how hard you impress your white boss, no matter how friendly and cooperative you are to white police officers, “this is probably as good as it gets, so I’ll just live for today” then that inhibits the kind of long-term goal setting and planning that are required for success in the future. And having said all the above, let’s be clear: many, many African Americans **don’t** feel that way. Many African Americans work hard and do plan for and achieve long term success. But it’s understandable why some might reach different conclusions, which might explain a lot of social dysfunction we see in certain neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/720 "2018-08-14T13:51:35Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > My rebuttal - and I can’t speak for African Americans, but what would I would submit - is that if you take people of any race and subject them to the same kind of perpetual underclass status that African Americans have been subjected to, we would probably see similar socioeconomic side effects. No “probably” about it - we already have a parallel example in Native Americans, and the theory holds. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/721 "2018-08-14T14:29:32Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > White America sought not only to weaken Black America legally, but also socially. Even after the so-called “civil rights era,” you see White Americans wanting to have nothing to do with Black America, moving from cities to the suburbs, taking jobs and tax revenue with them. You’re circling back to blaming living generations of white people for deliberate actions against black people. Yes, during/after the civil rights era, [white flight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight) was widespread. It may be argued that white flight was selfish and short-sighted, but I don’t believe it was a case of white people deliberately seeking to socially weaken black people; apart from actual racists who simply didn’t want to be around black people now that they had equal rights under the law, I think it was people noticing that [race riots tended to happen mostly in big mixed-race cities, and not so much in quiet (mostly white) suburbs.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_riots#Civil_Rights_and_Black_Power_Movement's_Period:_1955%E2%80%931977) That the remaining (mostly black) populations of these inner city areas suffered from the loss of tax revenue and diversity after white people left was unfortunate, but I don’t believe it was an intended effect. Imagine a young 1960s white family in Detroit. Then riots happen in 1966, [1967](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Detroit_riot), and [1968](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Detroit_riot). A little digging shows that race riots aren’t really a problem over in the suburb of Plymouth, so they relocate there. They don’t want to weaken black people legally or socially, they just want a safe place to raise their kids, and they should not be regarded as oppressive overlords for that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/722 "2018-08-14T14:31:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thanks for the thoughtful response instead of snark, but you’re misreading my post. You were asked “What is that nebulous thing that you think makes black people inferior?” Your answer wasn’t “I don’t think black people are inferior” – it was “Their toxic culture”. Like I said - you aren’t reading what’s in front of you. I already said that I don’t think black people are inferior, and you skipped over it. > [@Me](#): > > Some aspects of black culture in the US are toxic and dysfunctional. It is that which is mainly responsible for the disproportionate disadvantage of blacks as a group > [@](#): > > So is black culture toxic? I have mentioned over and over again which parts of black culture are toxic. > [@](#): > > Is the culture of my family members toxic? Are they inferior because of their toxic culture? By nothing more than reading your most recent posts in this thread, your answer to all those questions is “yes”. That’s the problem - you have not been reading any of my posts. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m very concerned if that attitude – which may be a very common one – is that successful and high-achieving black people cannot have an entirely authentic “black culture”. That attitude is not common among whites. It certainly isn’t held by me, and your idea that I would say anything of the sort is ridiculous. If any culture encourages violent crime, academic under-achievement, family irresponsibility, and condemns those who resist this as “acting white” or not “authentic” - fuck that noise. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611.md?page=37)