# Living while black in America **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 9, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611 "2018-07-09T21:17:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/903 "2018-09-13T22:34:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Perhaps you should parse with the same precise and critical eye the post I was responding to. I’ve already had that conversation with Huey. Now I’m having it with you. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/904 "2018-09-13T22:37:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve already had that conversation with Huey. Now I’m having it with you. What a cop out. :rolleyes: Your bias, while always on display, is really obvious now. Try to be better! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/905 "2018-09-13T22:38:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What a cop out. :rolleyes: > > Your bias, while always on display, is really obvious now. Try to be better! I’ve never denied having bias, and I always try to be better. Hopefully, some day, you will too. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/906 "2018-09-13T22:41:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve never denied having bias, and I always try to be better. Hopefully, some day, you will too. If by “better” you mean not responding to ridiculous content with some truth, harsh and inconvenient as it may be, you’ll be waiting. Now with regards to your conversation with Huey, it wasn’t productive now was it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/907 "2018-09-13T22:44:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If by “better” you mean not responding to ridiculous content with some truth, harsh and inconvenient as it may be, you’ll be waiting. Now with regards to your conversation with Huey, it wasn’t productive now was it? That wasn’t truth. Implying that blacks are to blame for slavery, and whites are responsible for its abolition, is hateful nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/908 "2018-09-13T23:00:51Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > This is all very interesting and I don’t doubt the scientific validity of what you describe. It makes sense. > > There’s only one thing I dispute about it, but it’s a doozy. I don’t believe autism is a “curse”. If there were some sort of pill or other treatment that was guaranteed to “cure autism” (I guess that would mean making someone neurotypical), I would not authorize it for my kids, although I’d let them make their own choice upon attaining majority. This is not true of how I’d feel about other disabilities: I’m fairly sure I’d be eager to give a blind child vision or enable a wheelchair-bound child to walk. But my wife and I agree on this, as does every parent of a child with autism I have met (which is quite a few). Whereas I doubt this is a common feeling among parents of kids who are blind or in a wheelchair. > > ETA: This idea that only impact, rather than intention, matters is one that was also discussed on the latest Sam Harris Waking Up podcast. It’s a terrible and very dangerous idea, as it seems to be increasingly influential. You are a fucking, egomaniacal idiot. You are a blot upon humanity. You are so full of shit that I don’t know how you open your mouth to talk. You’ve talked to some other parents and you think you’ve got it cornered? If there were a miracle cure, I would have given it to my son the absolute instant it was feasible and so would every single parent with any sense of human decency. Yes, there are millions of people living with autism and doing well, but any parent or guardian who would not choose to heal a child of the absolute obstacles to relationships, jobs, independence, social networks that autism brings not to mention learning disabilities, physical disabilities and all of the other types of things that are associated on the spectrum is not fit to raise a child. You would (I assume) give your children medicine for a headache, or allergies, but when they’re an infant, or even now, you’re going to say “fuck it - let them struggle through until they’re 18 and then figure out”? You are scum and not fit to be in polite society. Go sit with anti-vaxxers. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/909 "2018-09-13T23:12:26Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > You are a fucking, egomaniacal idiot. You are a blot upon humanity. You are so full of shit that I don’t know how you open your mouth to talk. You’ve talked to some other parents and you think you’ve got it cornered? > > If there were a miracle cure, I would have given it to my son the absolute instant it was feasible and so would every single parent with any sense of human decency. Yes, there are millions of people living with autism and doing well, but any parent or guardian who would not choose to heal a child of the absolute obstacles to relationships, jobs, independence, social networks that autism brings not to mention learning disabilities, physical disabilities and all of the other types of things that are associated on the spectrum is not fit to raise a child. > > You would (I assume) give your children medicine for a headache, or allergies, but when they’re an infant, or even now, you’re going to say “fuck it - let them struggle through until they’re 18 and then figure out”? > > You are scum and not fit to be in polite society. Go sit with anti-vaxxers. Beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/910 "2018-09-13T23:18:00Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Are autistic children capable of the same parent-bonding early in life that (many) believe is so important to later-in-life development and positive, healthy relationships in adulthood? I ask you this as you have an autistic child. Im guessing your answer will be some variety of “yes”, based on the above post. What makes a condition a “disability” rather than just a characteristic? **Ambi** - the answer is “maybe”. Some autistic children bond well and can share it. Some bond well and are unable to communicate it. Some do not bond. The “disability” question is an interesting one. For my purposes, as I also have an autistic child, I’ll consider it on two levels: does autism impede his ability to learn the skills he needs to be an independent adult; when he is an adult, is he able to maintain himself as an independent adult within the community, or to function in society. While there are millions of people who live with autism, and many who accept it as who they are, I would still consider it a disability for most. The word “disability” is loaded. It sounds as if someone is less of a person, or at least that’s what people read into it. Let’s agree not to read it that way. Call it an added difficulty factor, if I can be a nerd about it. Autistic children will have varying degrees of additional difficultly learning the skills they need to be successful adults. Autistic adults, depending on their place on the spectrum, will also have added degrees of difficulty in dealing with jobs, social situations, self care, and the other tasks of functioning in society. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/911 "2018-09-13T23:23:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Lol. Oh the irony! Let me ask you this who actually worked to end global slavery? Who sold Africans to begin with? I’d be confused as well if some of my ancestors sold some of my other ancestors. Fuck off, you malodorous suppurating arsewen. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/912 "2018-09-13T23:26:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Fuck off, you malodorous suppurating arsewen. I had to google that and I’m still mystified. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/913 "2018-09-13T23:30:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m not **SlackerInc** , but I would imagine it depends on where they are on the spectrum. Wouldn’t that simply impact the _degree_ to which they are impeded from this bonding, rather than any inherent ability to bond itself? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/914 "2018-09-13T23:31:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I had to google that and I’m still mystified. A \*[wen](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wen#Noun)\*on an arse. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/915 "2018-09-13T23:32:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A \*[wen](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wen#Noun)\*on an arse. Thank you. Wonderful! ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/916 "2018-09-13T23:35:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Fuck off, you malodorous suppurating arsewen. I got 2/3 of those terms but that term “arsewen”, I got nothing. But as Meatloaf says, 2/3 aint bad. 😉 ETA: an stinky pus-leaking ass cyst! Nice! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/917 "2018-09-13T23:45:03Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > You are a fucking, egomaniacal idiot. You are a blot upon humanity. You are so full of shit that I don’t know how you open your mouth to talk. You’ve talked to some other parents and you think you’ve got it cornered? > > If there were a miracle cure, I would have given it to my son the absolute instant it was feasible and so would every single parent with any sense of human decency. Yes, there are millions of people living with autism and doing well, but any parent or guardian who would not choose to heal a child of the absolute obstacles to relationships, jobs, independence, social networks that autism brings not to mention learning disabilities, physical disabilities and all of the other types of things that are associated on the spectrum is not fit to raise a child. > > You would (I assume) give your children medicine for a headache, or allergies, but when they’re an infant, or even now, you’re going to say “fuck it - let them struggle through until they’re 18 and then figure out”? > > You are scum and not fit to be in polite society. Go sit with anti-vaxxers. To be fair, there is a small but vocal community of autistics who do not believe that autism is a disorder, and find the idea of a cure very offensive. But they’re generally in the minority, much like the whole Deaf Community. And at the other end of the spectrum (no pun intended), you have Autism Speaks, who generally portrays autism as the WORST THING EVER, push a lot of woo and [abusive treatments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Rotenberg_Educational_Center) and people who have written books like [this](https://www.amazon.com/Wish-Kids-Had-Cancer-Surviving/dp/1606720708). And don’t even get me started on the scourge that is the anti-vax movement. They should all be given tetanus and left untreated. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Fuck off, you malodorous suppurating arsewen. I know I’m not your favorite poster, but I gotta tip my hat to you, sir. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/918 "2018-09-14T00:33:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Fuck off, you malodorous suppurating arsewen. Potty mouth got a new thesaurus? Great. It’s telling you are triggered by a tame rebuke to Huey’s racist screed but not Huey’s post. Is history inconvenient with your professional victimhood? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/919 "2018-09-14T01:23:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > To be fair, there is a small but vocal community of autistics who do not believe that autism is a disorder, and find the idea of a cure very offensive. But they’re generally in the minority, much like the whole Deaf Community. > > And at the other end of the spectrum (no pun intended), you have Autism Speaks, who generally portrays autism as the WORST THING EVER, push a lot of woo and [abusive treatments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Rotenberg_Educational_Center) and people who have written books like [this](https://www.amazon.com/Wish-Kids-Had-Cancer-Surviving/dp/1606720708). They have not been in the minority IME. But I don’t have any study or poll result to say for sure. Do you? I agree that Autism Speaks is terrible. And they are the ones hot for a “cure”. BTW, the generally preferred terminology is “people with autism”, not “autistics”. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > Are autistic children capable of the same parent-bonding early in life that (many) believe is so important to later-in-life development and positive, healthy relationships in adulthood? I ask you this as you have an autistic child. Im guessing your answer will be some variety of “yes”, based on the above post. What makes a condition a “disability” rather than just a characteristic? Your last question is a good one, and I don’t have a ready answer. As for your first question on bonding, IME the answer is “yes”: I have four children altogether, and the snuggliest of all is one of the two with autism (he has come to snuggle with me in my chair several times in the past couple hours). But we practiced attachment parenting with all our kids (the original version promoted by Dr. Sears, not the insane version that has metastasized online), which presumably made a difference. People with autism are very much into continuing patterns they are used to and resistant to change. So if in infancy you made them “cry it out” in a crib, and bottlefed them in a plastic carrier, rather than keeping them close to you in a sling, breastfeeding, etc., it wouldn’t surprise me if they developed an aversion to being held or touched since it’s not what they are used to. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m not **SlackerInc** , but I would imagine it depends on where they are on the spectrum. It seems a reasonable hypothesis, but it’s not my experience. My son who is the snuggliest of my four children is further along the autism spectrum than my daughter. He is not considered “high functioning” (although he has surprised the school with his ability to learn, if he feels like it) and has a one-on-one para all day long. My daughter spends most of her time in the regular classroom and does not need a para most of the time. I can understand how someone could look at my son at least and have a hard time understanding why I wouldn’t want to “cure” him, while maybe seeing it my way more with my daughter. But because this is a fundamental aspect of his brain and thus his personality (I am a materialist monist), to me “curing” him would essentially mean killing him and replacing him with a neurotypical boy. He’s not in pain, he’s physically very strong and fit, and loves to run and play. I love him as he is, and I don’t want to replace him with a different son. > [@j666](#): > > This has been bothering, and every time I see the post quoted, it bothers me more. > Where do you live? That describes maybe three people I know, and two of them are related. You’re starting to humiliate yourself. That really depends on your location. Here in northern Minnesota, tall blond-haired (or red-haired), blue-eyed people with Scandinavian or at least German surnames are ubiquitous. But when we visited NYC this summer, I was reminded (having lived there twenty years ago) that the spectrum of what’s considered “white” there is quite different. I walked around on the crowded ferry and there was only one little group of people who were as “white” as my family—and when I got close enough to hear them speak, they turned out to be German tourists! LOL In Missouri where I used to live, it was somewhere in between. But even when I lived in Seattle, my neighbor referred to my then-girlfriend, later first wife (whose father is an Italian-American and her mother an Irish-American from Jersey) as a “foreign girl” because she has thick black eyebrows and curly black hair. Another time we were driving through eastern Washington and stopped at a rest area. As she approached the ladies’ room, a woman exiting told her there was a mess she needed to clean up right away—apparently because she looked Hispanic?!? :smack: (Things like that make me understand the impulse among POC to hate on white people, but it’s still an erroneous impulse.) In Jersey or NYC, she would have been “median white girl”. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/920 "2018-09-14T02:05:30Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > … But when we visited NYC this summer, I was reminded (having lived there twenty years ago) that the spectrum of what’s considered “white” there is quite different. … Ah. I see. It’s not sub cultural differences, it really is all about the color of one’s skin or at least one’s hair. Huh. I always thought that was a metaphor. You live with some ugly pieces of work, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/921 "2018-09-14T03:03:39Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > If there were a miracle cure, I would have given it to my son the absolute instant it was feasible and so would every single parent with any sense of human decency. Yes, there are millions of people living with autism and doing well, but any parent or guardian who would not choose to heal a child of the absolute obstacles to relationships, jobs, independence, social networks that autism brings not to mention learning disabilities, physical disabilities and all of the other types of things that are associated on the spectrum is not fit to raise a child. > > You would (I assume) give your children medicine for a headache, or allergies, but when they’re an infant, or even now, you’re going to say “fuck it - let them struggle through until they’re 18 and then figure out”? What a cure would affect is a complicated question. I don’t agree with the analogy to an ailment. We’re dealing with sets of characteristics of many different types and levels of severity. Some on the spectrum are quite gifted in certain areas. They may fear a cure taking that away. There is a fundamental issue of identity and what autism means, how holistically it encompasses one’s identity. Unlike some, I can’t argue against it being responsible to attempt to exhaust avenues to help someone who is limited enough or has co-morbids requiring a lot of treatment. Beyond that, if you would get out more (perhaps visit their online communities), you’d realize your commentary is insensitive. It tears at the heart of some of their identities. It reinforces ideas of the supremacy of social networking the merit of which is based on games some of them would never wish to play. And realistically there may come a day when your son disagrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611/922 "2018-09-14T03:16:09Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > And realistically there may come a day when your son disagrees with you. Doesn’t this cut both ways though? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/living-while-black-in-america/817611.md?page=47)