# Lobsang, what is it with you and atheism? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 14, 2004, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170 "2004-10-14T08:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/21 "2004-10-14T12:10:31Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > No, some ideas you can prove. You can’t prove atheism any more than you can disprove it, so it is entirely dependent on belief. Therefore it is a religion. Well, I wouldn’t go that far with it **F/G** A religion is more of a systematic belief in something. I can be a spiritual person and believe in God, yet NOT be religious. An atheist isn’t religious spiritually in any sense of the word IMHO. Their belief is simply that, a belief. A child can believe in the tooth fairy but that doesn’t make it a religion. Some of us believe that Cecil is real and some do not. No religion involved. I don’t mean to be offensive, nor do I completely disagree with what you have attempted yo say here but I can’t agree with the statement quoted. Atheism is a belief, it is an idea that science can be used to dispute **some** claims or evidence that God does exist. No theories aren’t proven, they are disproven. Neither theists or Atheists will ever prove to one another scientifically that either is correct. It’d take a personal eyewitnessing on their own behalf to convince them dofferently. Yours or my own testimony will never suffice. In some cases I’d venture they would even dispute themselves. But Atheism as a religion…well when they start building churches… Although I will give ya this much. Some preach it like a religion. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/22 "2004-10-14T12:10:42Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > I hope it means being honest, kind, fair and accepting with a dollop of being able to think for ones self. That’s what it means to me. Not because anygod told it to mean that but because that is the way I believe people should act. That’s secular humanism, not simply atheism. Secular humanism _is_ a set of beliefs. It’s “do unto others” Christianity and Mosaic Law, stripped of the supernatural element. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/23 "2004-10-14T12:14:54Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > That’s right. It’s not a denial against evidence, or a belief held in the absence of evidence, it’s a recognition of lack of evidence. Yes but still something that in believes ceratin things surely? Basic human rights? Not believing in any kind of spiritual life or after life should only strengthen the resolve for ensuring a better life for all now. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/24 "2004-10-14T12:15:02Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > I hope it means being honest, kind, fair and accepting with a dollop of being able to think for ones self. That’s what it means to me. Not because anygod told it to mean that but because that is the way I believe people should act. I have nothing against any of those things, and I try to be that way too. But it’s got no bearing on being an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/25 "2004-10-14T12:19:11Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > That’s secular humanism, not simply atheism. Secular humanism _is_ a set of beliefs. It’s “do unto others” Christianity and Mosaic Law, stripped of the supernatural element. Well maybe that is what it is. I believe it’s just plain old flipping decency. I have absolutely no belief in any higher power. I do believe we should look after each other though. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/26 "2004-10-14T12:27:10Z")
> [@](#): > > A) Any religion spawns zealots and fundamentalists. This seems to be the result of what I call a “holyness competition” among religious people. People compete in this arena like any other and inevitably, some will take it too far. > > B) The more popularity a religion gains, the more zealots you will have. > > C) Fundamentalists **will** try to impose their views on others, through coersion if they must but preferably by gaining a degree of secular power so they can enforce their version of public morals using the police and the courts. > > **To me this makes religion, any religion, a menace to a modern society**. Actually, any firmly held belief can spawn zealots, so you should actually be condemning any system of belief undertaken by humans. This would include all political associations, of course, since they are all predicated upon a _belief_ that their ideas will bring the most benefit to humanity (and even the purpotedly “rational” systems tend to take on the attributes of belief systems once enough people have been recruited). You cannot even escape this situation by championing anarchy, for the anarchists tend to band together to make their point and become what they claim to oppose. In contrast, there are, in fact, examples of religious beliefs that have spawned fewer zealots than the ones at which we are fond of pointing fingers. Buddhism seems to have spawned fewer zealous movements than Socialism or efforts to “spread Democracy.” Short of finding a way to alter human DNA to short-circuit the ability to believe, we cannot remove belief simply by abandoning religion, and the prevalence of religions in history simply makes them a convenient scapegoat for people who do not look further into the human psyche to find the “real” (if insoluble) problem. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/27 "2004-10-14T12:29:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I have nothing against any of those things, and I try to be that way too. But it’s got no bearing on being an atheist. It does though. It is preached as part of many religions. If you believe god is as likely as santa and still believe that we need to be kind to each other then it has every bearing. I am as likely to believe in the frigging pot of gold at the end of the rainbow as I in god but I will respect anyones beliefs…something many religions fail to do. To me that has something to do with being an atheist. I don’t care what frigging god you want to believe in, to me there is NONE. I will respect your beliefs in your home/ church etc…once out the door I will chortle. I won’t ram my lack of belief down anyones throat because it is offensive when others do it. I’m more then secure in my atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/28 "2004-10-14T12:32:48Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > Atheism is a belief, it is an idea that science can be used to dispute **some** claims or evidence that God does exist. Not really. In some cases this is true, but I’ve met atheists who disagree with modern science and believe in the supernatural. They just have no beliefs in God or a God-like deity. > [@t-keela](#): > > Although I will give ya this much. Some preach it like a religion. 😉 I’d agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/29 "2004-10-14T12:35:07Z")
**Testy** I can understand your fear completely when expressed in this context. I’m sorry that you and your family have to be subjected to this un-Godly behavior. Many people use the preface of religious sacrament in order to usurp power and wealth. They hide behind robes and tradition and claim to be God’s representatives in order to scare the masses into submission. This is nothing new. When corruption consumes any system of power it is an evil thing. This is not the fault of religion. It is the fault of men. If we could all live by the basic ideals found in every religion, we would not the terrible history that we have. But make no mistake…these men who are responsible for the corruption and war throughout the ages would and could NOT be stopped if religion had not been available. Greed, hate, lust, deceit, revenge, etc. these are qualities found in the human race and religion has been for the most part an attempt at controlling these things. No buddy…it’s men who are bad. They just use GOD to control their masses. There have been societies in which religion didn’t exist. They had the same problems…perhaps worse. In any event, I wish you luck. take care… t/k 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/30 "2004-10-14T12:35:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, any firmly held belief can spawn zealots… I was typing up something along those lines, but **tomndebb** ’s version made much more sense. The only thing missing from **tomndebb** ’s version is that some atheists are really anti-religion zealots, and can be just as crazy and annoying as religious zealots. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/31 "2004-10-14T12:35:52Z")
**Testy** , the person who introduced _fundamentalism_ into this debate is you. **Airman** certainly didn’t. It appears has if you have narrowed the focus of his rant from “religion” to “religious fundamentalism,” which is a much easier thing to argue against. I think there’s a name for that kind of argument… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/32 "2004-10-14T12:38:48Z")
I don’t see these threads of **Lobsang** ’s as anything more or less than an honest, philosophical exploration of something he has been chewing over in his mind. Sure, his personal views are rather evident in there, but it’s a _debate_ fercryinoutloud! ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/33 "2004-10-14T12:41:16Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > No, some ideas you can prove. You can’t prove atheism any more than you can disprove it, so it is entirely dependent on belief. Therefore it is a religion. The only thing you can prove is math. So are you suggesting that belief in every little thing in the world is a religion? I don’t get it, I don’t understand why some people want to equate atheism with either a religion or a belief, when _basically_ it’s neither. Sure, many atheists justify their lack of belief with science/logic/etc etc, but not all atheists do and to be an atheist does not require such activity. The fact remains that the atheist is not positively believing in something, the atheist is disbelieving in something. As for atheism being a religion, frankly I think that’s insulting to religious people. It degrades the term religion to include pretty much anything. As others have said, driving a car would be religious. Believing that the sun will rise tomorrow is a religion. Should I get tax benefits for my religious observation of weight lifting? Also, if atheism is a religion, then the theist (Christian for example) would have _two_ (or more) religions, as they disbelieve in a whole assortment of other Gods/religions. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/34 "2004-10-14T12:41:37Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > It does though. It is preached as part of many religions. If you believe god is as likely as santa and still believe that we need to be kind to each other then it has every bearing. _Your_ moral code might be fundementally rooted in your atheism. However, it is not a requirement to believe in _your_ moral code to be an atheist. There are, no doubt, a few atheists out there who = take the lack of exisistence of a supreme being as a license to reject all moral judgements. It doesn’t make them any less of an atheist, since it doesn’t change the fact that they do not beleive in a supreme being. No particular moral or ethical belief is required to be an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/35 "2004-10-14T12:42:20Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Not really. In some cases this is true, but I’ve met atheists who disagree with modern science and believe in the supernatural. They just have no beliefs in God or a God-like deity. Sorry **Meatros** but isn’t that what I said? I never said anything about the supernatural. Yeah, I know folks who claim God doesn’t exist. Yet they want to talk about witches, or ghosts, ESP and UFO’s. No doubt there are some who kinda walk the fence in their ideas regarding science. I assure you I meant no all inclusives or absolutes when referring to atheism. Just that IMHO it (generally speaking) doesn’t measure up as a religion. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/36 "2004-10-14T12:42:36Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > It does though. It is preached as part of many religions. Doesn’t that right there mean it’s not a tenet of atheism? You’re talking about things that are common to many people’s definition of being a good person. I’m not dismissing them, I’m just saying that being an atheist doesn’t entail taking on any other views. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/37 "2004-10-14T12:47:48Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > Sorry **Meatros** but isn’t that what I said? I never said anything about the supernatural. Well, it didn’t appear that way to me… 😉 I read your statement as saying that atheism is a belief that science can be used to dispute some claims/evidence that God exists, which is why I disagreed. All it is, is a disbelief in God. If I misread what you were saying, my apologies. > [@t-keela](#): > > Yeah, I know folks who claim God doesn’t exist. Yet they want to talk about witches, or ghosts, ESP and UFO’s. No doubt there are some who kinda walk the fence in their ideas regarding science. Heh, I know at least one that disagrees with evolution, believes in vampires (that he _IS_ a vampire), and doesn’t believe in God. > [@t-keela](#): > > I assure you I meant no all inclusives or absolutes when referring to atheism. Just that IMHO it (generally speaking) doesn’t measure up as a religion. > That’s all. Generally speaking you are probably correct, I guess I’m just being semantic about things. Perhaps this is because there is no common ground other then a disbelief in God among atheists. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/38 "2004-10-14T12:48:55Z")
Oh I am sorry. I thought being an atheist meant being able to decide ones own ideas without consulting a “god”. I didn’t realise it mean you had to get rid of your own values. For the record, I’m not a christian gone wonky, I was bought up as an atheist. I was bought up to respect everyones beliefs, to be kind and thoughtful…oh and to stick to my guns (guns being one of those things I don’t believe in :D) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/39 "2004-10-14T12:49:18Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > **Testy** , the person who introduced _fundamentalism_ into this debate is you. **Airman** certainly didn’t. It appears has if you have narrowed the focus of his rant from “religion” to “religious fundamentalism,” which is a much easier thing to argue against. I think there’s a name for that kind of argument… **Testy** didn’t introduce the topic in response to **Airman** , and it was only introduced as _background_ in response to **t-keela**. Your attempt at labelling it a “strawman”, or even an “argument” is itself a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170/40 "2004-10-14T12:52:30Z")
My disbelief is just as strong as some elses belief in god. As such it is almost a belief. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-what-is-it-with-you-and-atheism/269170.md?page=3)