# Lobsang, you miserable, judgmental lump of shit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 1, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331 "2003-05-01T06:55:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/121 "2003-05-02T13:58:21Z")
Oh for hellsake. If some one you would shut up for five seconds and actually listen to one another maybe this thread would end in a group hug then sink to the bottom. Maybe I can sum up what some of you aren’t hearing. 1. Childless people do not want to be badgered, harassed, pestered, or made to feel inadequate because of their decision. 2. The word “breeder” is insulting and insinuates that we are no more than cattle or fancy show dogs. 3. Some kids ARE snot nosed brats. 4. It is rude to generalize all kids as such. More often than not, kids are wonderful, respectful, and a lot of fun, but _they are still kids_, not some perfect, clean, little being that should be seen and not heard. Like it or not, you have to share the planet with them so cut them _some_ slack, eh? 5. It is rude to generalize all non parents as selfish assholes who are missing out on the experience of raising kids. Having children doesn’t insure a lifetime of fulfilled happiness so stop with your misplaced pity. 6. It’s also rude to generalize all parents as poor souls who have given up everything, including freedom, hobbies, time, and money because of their decision to have children. I can almost bet that I, as a parent, have experienced more people, places, and things, that some of you freedom loving non-parents so just stop with the generalities, m’kay? 7. Some people make wonderful parents, other people make wonderful non-parents, others fall somewhere in the middle and do the best that they can with what they have. All sides need to stop with the judgmental bullshit and shut their yaps long enough to actually hear what each other is saying. It would help to realize that your perception of a fulfilling life style may be very different that mine. It doesn’t make either one of us right or wrong or any less of a person or even worthy of pity. Agree? Then what is the argument here? ---
**Author:** ![badmana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@badmana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badmana)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/122 "2003-05-02T14:43:11Z")
I second everything **MrVisible** said. I agree that there isn’t any overpopulation but at the same time, we’re not in danger of running out of people. CF people who use the “over population” myth are countered by the parents who say not having kids is selfish. It’s really a personal choice that really doesn’t concern anyone but me and my SO. And what about the parents with only one kid? Shouldn’t they have 2 at least? Sheesh…how selfish 😃 BTW, I have no excuse as to why I only want 1 kid _at most_ and would rather have none. I’m rather indifferent about kids, even the loud annoying ones that I’d rather strangle than anything else. I wouldn’t be surprised if most CF people are like me…they just aren’t moved either way to have kids or not. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/123 "2003-05-02T15:08:08Z")
My point, borrowing from **Diane’s** list, has been a question to the moderator that if we see someone doing 4, 5, and/or 6, even if it is in line with the OP, can we not call them on it, politely, without being forced to open a pit thread? That is all. Some others have misunderstood my purpose in the thread, most recently **Miller** and(assuming a mix-up between **Shodan** (who hasn’t posted in this thread) and Steven, we do have similar-sign offs), **Goo**. I have no problem with individuals asserting a _personal_ aversion to children or asserting that parenthood would be a negative experience _for them_. I do have a problem with them projecting this personal preference and characterizing ALL children as repulsive and ALL parental relationships as negative. **Miller** , I don’t think your analogy with Harry Potter and a CS thread holds up. I’ve never said one should be able to walk into a Harry Potter thread and say “HP SUX, you are all dum!!!1” or a more eloquent equivelant. However, if, in that HP thread, people are relating a distorted version of the book for discussion(perhaps from memory and they get events and characters mixed up), would it not be appropriate to say things like “No, that never happened in the books. It was really more like this…”? I suggest it is not inappropriate to attempt to correct hyperbolic distortions of reality in non-pit forums. I will let it go now because I’m not sure **Czarcasm** (who issued the original ruling) is even following this thread. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![ouisey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc29f/32.png) [@ouisey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouisey)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/124 "2003-05-02T15:21:53Z")
Go **Diane**! Very well put. **CrazyCatLady** , there is a sort of selflessness that comes with parenting…and isn’t quite like anything else. Here I’m getting into deep waters. I think mothers feel it more than fathers (this is probably because I never have and never will been/be a father). Its like all of the sudden, there’s this creature that depends on you, and you have to set aside your wants and needs to nurture it. To me, it was like losing a part of myself. I mean, you can set aside your wants and needs in order to fulfill the wishes of your SO, but the idea is that your SO is supposed to be setting aside his wants and needs for you sometimes, when the occasion demands. A two-way street. Babies’ streets are one-way all the time. Until they get older, at least. And its weird, because for some reason, at the time, I didn’t mind. Instinct kicks in and I wasn’t so freaked out about the process. If there was ever a “curse of Eve”, I think its this: babies can suck the life out of you, and for some reason, you welcome it. And, as **Diane** said, there’s loads you can do with children, and it can be a blast, but your kids will always be there to provide the “but” in every scenario you wish for. As in “I’d like to move to Paris, but will my kid want to move too?” At least its been that way for me. Anne Roiphe sums it all up nicely in _Fertility_. That being said, I don’t blame anyone for choosing to remain childless. ---
**Author:** ![ouisey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc29f/32.png) [@ouisey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouisey)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/125 "2003-05-02T15:26:27Z")
Dammit, that was _Fruitful_ by Anne Roiphe, not _Fertility_. sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Zenham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a5b964/32.png) [@Zenham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenham)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/126 "2003-05-02T15:51:51Z")
I used to hate children, but I found this great recipe… ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/127 "2003-05-02T20:37:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\* > No. Why is this a pertinent point? Do I need to stab myself in the eye to know that it will hurt me? > > (Note: The key word is “me”. If makin’ babies hasn’t hurt YOU, congrats. Me? I’m the last person on the planet that should have children. Now, a CLONE would be nice, as long as it was slightly larger than 1/8 my size.) \*\* Great, I was worried you might have kids. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/128 "2003-05-02T20:38:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kambuckta \* > \*\*I appreciate what you are saying Haj, but I still think there is a qualitative difference between the ego-shift that occurs when you get married and when you have a child. I’d be interested to hear the opinions of other parents in this regard. > > In my opinion, it’s not to do with ‘love’, rather the feeling of absolute certainty that you will always put this other person’s needs before your own. Although I adored my husband and he was the centre of my life, I really cannot say equivocally that I would have sacrificed my own life for his. I CAN say that about my children. > > Now, maybe this is a flaw in my person, but I get the distinct feeling from other parents that they feel much the same. I suggest that it has some sort of biological base…survival of the species and all of that. Whatever the reason, the outcome is the same. \*\* I have to respectfully disagree **Kam**. That is that having kids is necessary to turn us into unselfish, fully cognizant, “good” human beings. Or that it is required in order to bring out the best in us, and make us realize we aren’t the center of the universe. For instance take Audrey Hepburn as an example of my opinion. She didn’t have any children of her own right? But yet even though she was an admired star and sex symbol of sorts, she spent the latter part of her life caring for others. I certainly wouldn’t call her thinking she was the center of the universe. Ghandi (sp pls?), Mother Theresa…and I’m sure countless others who are childless by choice, but nonetheless have a very good karmic standing in the world (though perhaps small and unsung), due to their attitudes about themselves and others in relation to “how life works”. It doesn’t take having or raising children to be conscious of your ability to “be all you can be” so to speak. There are many many life circumstances that can teach us the “appropriate” way to be in this world. As to the comments about willingness of parents to “sacrifice their lives, or put other’s lives before their own”? No, that’s not always being a parent that does that, that’s taking a person that was already a solid good person, and perhaps having the child brought out that instinct more finely. But who is to say that other life circumstances than children might not have brought out that same “noble” attitude in them? Such as those I’ve mentioned. Plus as many of us in this thread have mentioned, too many parents do just the OPPOSITE of having their “best” brought out in them. Too many parents find out after it’s too late, that having kids brings out not their BEST humanity, but their WORST. For instance: The woman who drowned her 5 kids? Susan Smith the Menendez Bros? (obviously their parents hadn’t had THEIR best brought out, or how else did they raise boys that grew up to murder them?). By and large? I think (hope) most of us just try to do our best and most of us aren’t June and Ward Cleaver, but are closer to Roseanne and Dan. And as Mr. Visible said, it’s not as if it’s some Noble Sacred mission, having kids. It’s just biology, nothing more, nothing less. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/129 "2003-05-02T21:12:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diane \* > \*\*Oh for hellsake. If some one you would shut up for five seconds and actually listen to one another maybe this thread would end in a group hug then sink to the bottom. Maybe I can sum up what some of you aren’t hearing. Your points were all good ones, and ones we’ve all been making throughout this thread. I think people are actually coming to a pretty decent understanding of others’ viewpoints here. But being as it’s all being done in type, without the benefit of smiles, tone of voice and other f2f gestures, it may seem more “argumentative” cold and harsh than it’s meant to be. Looking at this thread from the beginning, people in this thread ARE moving toward that “group hug”. imho, the way people are talking and debating in this thread is pretty civil overall, and it appears to be progressing toward exactly what you said. Not meant to be snotty, just an observation. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/130 "2003-05-02T21:26:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > \*\*My point, borrowing from **Diane’s** list, has been a question to the moderator that if we see someone doing 4, 5, and/or 6, even if it is in line with the OP, can we not call them on it, politely, without being forced to open a pit thread? > > That is all. slight hijack. Huh? (okay, I’m blonde but), I thought this thread WAS in the pit? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/131 "2003-05-02T21:46:54Z")
**CanvasShoes** , THIS thread is. The thread which inspired it is not. **Lobsang** took offense to instances of numbers 4, 5, and 6 from **Diane’s** list in the original thread and said so there. He also said some other stuff that got him a lot of flack there and inspired this thread here. He was told his complaints were out of line in that thread and I’m trying to clarify if it was the derision of the reasoning behind the childfree lifestyle portion of **Lobsang’s** posts, the calls for accurate representation of parenthood, or both. I’d hope that if a thread is full of overgeneralizations and hurtful stereotypes that someone would be allowed to say something about it without having to go to a full-on pitting. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/132 "2003-05-02T21:59:36Z")
If they can say it a)politely b) intelligently and c) without completely hijacking the original thread, then they should certainly hop to it. **Lobsang** was unable to do any of the three, so he got his ass rightfully chewed. Incidentally, he was bent out of shape over 4 and 6, and _committed_ 5. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/133 "2003-05-02T22:39:22Z")
Is this thing still going? :rolleyes: It seems an apology is worth nothing to some people. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/134 "2003-05-02T22:58:25Z")
Agreed. I said it should be possible to call people on any/all of 4-6 in my original post after **Diane’s**. Got it a little more muddled with my last one. Sorry about that. I just think polite disagreements on minor points, especially when one group is most likely being knowingly hyperbolic and overgeneralizing, shouldn’t be forced to the pit. Discussion of the merits/motives of CF living should go either here or GD. But, quite frankly, I don’t understand why a polite rejoinder to keep the derision down would be out of place. It isn’t like derision of parents is an integral part of the average CF person’s day. Why would it be necessary in the thread? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/135 "2003-05-02T23:45:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Great, I was worried you might have kids. Nope, just siblings. I saw first hand why having kids is a bad idea… and, apparently, unlike some, learned better. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/136 "2003-05-03T04:27:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lobsang \* > \*\*I sense that people are taking out their anger caused by “my kid is perfect” parents on ALL parents. > > Let’s everyone understand what everyone else is saying please? \*\* \*\*Lobs \*\* is saying,“I fucked up, I didn’t mean to imply that all childless parents are selfish.” The selfish childless parents are saying, “Fuck you Lobsang, you are full of shit. You miserable piece if shit.” I may be a bit inaccurate in my paraphrasing of the folks who have completely shown their ass in this thread. BUT fuckoff…you ignorant fucks. He said he was sorry…if you are so fucking ignorant and full of yourself that you can’t accept a sincere apology. Then you can ALL kiss my ass too. Fucking (need to get laid) pricks…:rolleyes: I’m through w/ this thread…fucking asshats ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/137 "2003-05-03T05:51:28Z")
Sorry, but when someone apologizes for insulting me, insults me again, apologizes again, and then insults me _again_, I tend to doubt the sincerity of their apologies. A sincere apology, in my book, includes the intent and good faith effort not to repeat the behavior. If he didn’t go around repeatedly insulting people, he wouldn’t have to keep apologizing, now would he? ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/138 "2003-05-03T06:13:58Z")
!!! Where did I re-insult you? Please quote where I re-insulted you? I went on to say that I dislike the disrespectful way **some** people refer to children. If that insulted you then it means must refer to children in a disrespectful way. I also criticised a specific anti children attitude - “I want to spend my money on me, not these things I consider brats” That was a specific criticism of people who show that particular attitude. I was not refering to all childfree people with that!! And talk about insulting - that fucking title. I have put up with that for days! ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/139 "2003-05-03T06:17:44Z")
I believe the main error for which I apologised was hijacking that thread. I was not really apologising specifically for insulting you CrazyCatLady because technically I did not insult you. You misunderstood some things I said and were insulted by them (the misunderstood version of them) And for the nth time - The comment about lack of regard for the human race was directed at the stupid comment that j\_kat\_351 made, not at anyone else. I said it in rage. **Are you just ignoring my defence? and continuing to say I did the wrong thing?** because it seems like you are. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331/140 "2003-05-03T06:17:51Z")
Heh. It must mean that you have passed the Initiation Test to be a fully-fledged Doper ™ Lobbers. 😃 Don’t sweat the small stuff…and this is indeed small, OK? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lobsang-you-miserable-judgmental-lump-of-shit/172331.md?page=8)