# Loch Ness Monster Is/Was a Plesiosaur? Does it still Exist in the Atlantic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809 "2019-01-15T17:20:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/1 "2019-01-15T17:20:38Z")
An article in a Charleston, SC newspaper dated 3/15/1869 relates a finding while in St. Simon’s Bay Capt. Perry fell in with a “dead monster of the deep floating on the surface.” The carcass was 15 feet out of water and was about 30 feet long by 20 feet wide “with an alligator shaped head attached to the body by a neck about fifteen feet in length.” It was shaped like a tortoise. The article implied that it was a Kraken reborn, the description was more of a Plesiosaur. It was unanimously decided by European scientists that the Loch Ness Monster was actually one of the last Plesiosaurs on the planet. After the Great Flood, one may have been trapped in the deep waters of the Loch Ness. Who’s to say that 15 miles off the Atlantic shelf there still may be a pod that never surfaces from the deep? That area is very deep and the creature described and pictured is a factual deep water reptile from the dinosaur age, with an actual skeleton in a Japanese museum. That area lies in “the Bermuda Triangle” and was the search area for missing seagoing vessels over centuries. From the bones discovered, Plesiosaur was quite smaller, but perhaps they got larger having to live deeper due to ocean temps and pollution. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/2 "2019-01-15T17:49:15Z")
In order for this to be accurate we need: Dinosaurs that didn’t go extinct and remain hidden in the sea to this day. A group of said dinosaurs to be washed into a lake during the Great Flood, presumably thousands of years ago. Those dinosaurs continue to breed and live (in a fresh water lake rather than the sea) until the present day One specimen (the very last of this species to live after millions of years of survival and no contact with humans) was briefly filmed many years ago, and then died undiscovered. This this what we’re being asked to believe? Because the alternative is: Some crank took a blurry photo of a crude mockup and said it was of the legendary Monster of Loch Ness. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/3 "2019-01-15T17:50:37Z")
The Loch Ness Monster is/was almost certainly a hoax (the famous picture of it definitely was). Likewise, it is extremely unlikely that any plesiosaurs survive in any form; given that they are thought to have died out 175 million years ago, if the species had survived we might have expected to have found _some_ remains from the last 175 million years to indicate this. That said, oceans are deep and paleontology is still a relatively young science, so I’d rate the chances of plesiosaurs still swimming around in the Atlantic as virtually-but-not-absolutely zero. But I’d put my money on “zero” anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/4 "2019-01-15T17:51:18Z")
[Moderating] Witnessing goes in Great Debates. Sorry, **Bone** et al. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/5 "2019-01-15T18:20:48Z")
Plesiosaurs were reptiles, which means they breathed air, which means they must have surfaced from time to time from the deep to breathe. Any surviving modern Plesiosaurs would have to breathe air. So, if there are undiscovered creatures that live in the deep oceans and never come to the surface (which there certainly are), those creatures cannot be Plesiosaurs, or any other kind of marine reptile, marine bird, or marine mammal. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/6 "2019-01-15T18:54:11Z")
“The Great Flood”…please. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/7 "2019-01-15T19:11:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > In order for this to be accurate we need: > Dinosaurs that didn’t go extinct and remain hidden in the sea to this day. > A group of said dinosaurs to be washed into a lake during the Great Flood, presumably thousands of years ago. > Those dinosaurs continue to breed and live (in a fresh water lake rather than the sea) until the present day > One specimen (the very last of this species to live after millions of years of survival and no contact with humans) was briefly filmed many years ago, and then died undiscovered. > > This this what we’re being asked to believe? > > Because the alternative is: > Some crank took a blurry photo of a crude mockup and said it was of the legendary Monster of Loch Ness. Plesiosaurs aren’t dinosaurs. But yeah, the Loch Ness monster is a hoax. There’s very little in the way of native lore connected with it, except St Columba back in the sixth century AD, and that is hard to reconcile with a Plesiosaur. Not that all Cryptids are fakes. There very well could be thylacines still living. The Yeti appears to be a almost unknown super rare species of bear. Weird coyote half breeds with mange look a LOT like a chupacabra. The Nandi Bear may well have been a now extinct giant Hyena. Many large mammalian species are still be discovered every decade. Steller’s sea ape?? Certainly rare then, and extinct now, but Steller was a pretty good observer and found many new species, one of which, Steller’s sea Cow was also rare and now extinct. I’d say a possible. (but not a ape, of course. Maybe a giant sea otter or some sort of unknown sea lion). Bigfoot is a hoax, however. Basically, if the natives say they know about it and have done so for a long time, there’s a chance they are right. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/8 "2019-01-15T19:14:15Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > “The Great Flood”…please. There was such a flood. Not quite like in the Bible of course, that’s myth. But likely it comes from the legends of the Shuruppak flood , which was huge and disastrous. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/9 "2019-01-15T19:16:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There was such a flood. Not quite like in the Bible of course, that’s myth. But likely it comes from the legends of the Shuruppak flood , which was huge and disastrous. Sure, but it wasn’t a “great” flood. A “pretty good” flood at best. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/10 "2019-01-15T19:24:12Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Sure, but it wasn’t a “great” flood. A “pretty good” flood at best. Fair to midlin. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/11 "2019-01-15T19:24:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There was such a flood. Not quite like in the Bible of course, that’s myth. But likely it comes from the legends of the Shuruppak flood , which was huge and disastrous. I mean, I understand the point. There have been “Great Floods” that appear in cultural memory but anyone arguing for the Biblical Great Flood is not even worth talking too. Even if the OP meant the Shuruppak flood are we suppose to be impressed by an argument that a tries to associate a local flooding with forcing a plesiosaur into a Scottish loch? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/12 "2019-01-15T19:35:07Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > …Even if the OP meant the Shuruppak flood are we suppose to be impressed by an argument that a tries to associate a local flooding with forcing a plesiosaur into a Scottish loch? And how else would he get there? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/13 "2019-01-15T19:35:40Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > I mean, I understand the point. There have been “Great Floods” that appear in cultural memory but anyone arguing for the Biblical Great Flood is not even worth talking too. Even if the OP meant the Shuruppak flood are we suppose to be impressed by an argument that a tries to associate a local flooding with forcing a plesiosaur into a Scottish loch? Well, witnessing is allowed in GD. But yes, altho some very “great” and to them “covered the world” (since to them, it was the world) floods did exist and are quite possibly the source of the Biblical flood myth, a flood that literally covered the entire globe could not and did not exist while humans lived on the Earth. However, a discussion of the Loch Ness Monster is reasonable. Many intelligent people have searched for it. Of course, i think it’s a hoax, but I could be wrong. But a plesiosaur? I am willing to say- absolutely no. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/14 "2019-01-15T19:42:27Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > And how else would he get there? :dubious: Atlantians. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/15 "2019-01-15T19:45:03Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > And how else would he get there? :dubious: I’m thinking catapult. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/16 "2019-01-15T19:47:39Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Atlantians. Dammit, I forgot about them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/17 "2019-01-15T19:52:54Z")
The big thing is you aren’t just explaining one plesiosaur. I don’t know what the lifespan of a plesiosaur was but I’m willing to bet it wasn’t measured in millions of years. Or even thousands of years. So if there’s a plesiosaur in Loch Ness right now (or back in 1933) it doesn’t just mean there’s one surviving dinosaur. It means there’s a breeding population of dinosaurs that’s been there for generation after generation. You’d have dinosaurs swimming around, dinosaurs feeding, dinosaurs mating, dinosaur eggs, dinosaur babies hatching, and old dinosaurs dying. Thousands of them over the years. In a lake that has a surface area of twenty-two square miles. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/18 "2019-01-15T19:54:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Dammit, I forgot about them. No one expects the Atlantis evolution! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/19 "2019-01-15T20:32:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The big thing is you aren’t just explaining one plesiosaur. I don’t know what the lifespan of a plesiosaur was but I’m willing to bet it wasn’t measured in millions of years. Or even thousands of years. > > So if there’s a plesiosaur in Loch Ness right now (or back in 1933) it doesn’t just mean there’s one surviving dinosaur. It means there’s a breeding population of dinosaurs that’s been there for generation after generation. You’d have dinosaurs swimming around, dinosaurs feeding, dinosaurs mating, dinosaur eggs, dinosaur babies hatching, and old dinosaurs dying. Thousands of them over the years. In a lake that has a surface area of twenty-two square miles. Eating people. You forgot dinosaurs eating people. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/20 "2019-01-15T20:47:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The big thing is you aren’t just explaining one plesiosaur. I don’t know what the lifespan of a plesiosaur was but I’m willing to bet it wasn’t measured in millions of years. Or even thousands of years. > > So if there’s a plesiosaur in Loch Ness right now (or back in 1933) it doesn’t just mean there’s one surviving dinosaur. It means there’s a breeding population of dinosaurs that’s been there for generation after generation. You’d have dinosaurs swimming around, dinosaurs feeding, dinosaurs mating, dinosaur eggs, dinosaur babies hatching, and old dinosaurs dying. Thousands of them over the years. In a lake that has a surface area of twenty-two square miles. Not only that, but how long has Loch Ness existed in it’s known form? I am sure there is a long gap in years between the last possible living plesiosaur and when the Loch took it’s current form. A LONG time. And, is it possible the Loch was either frozen over, or covered in Pleistocene glacial ice, rendering it inhabitable to any large life form? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809.md?page=2)