# Loch Ness Monster Is/Was a Plesiosaur? Does it still Exist in the Atlantic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809 "2019-01-15T17:20:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/21 "2019-01-15T21:01:29Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > given that they are thought to have died out 175 million years ago, if the species had survived we might have expected to have found _some_ remains from the last 175 million years to indicate this. 66 million. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/22 "2019-01-15T21:06:44Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Sure, but it wasn’t a “great” flood. A “pretty good” flood at best. You wouldn’t say that if you had been there! While a lot of things about the Loch Ness Monster have certainly been hoaxes, I don’t think the whole thing is a hoax. More like a lot of things have been witnessed in the lake under certain conditions that caused various people to jump to the conclusion that there was a huge lake monster. Having been to Loch Ness, I can see it. It’s pretty creepy in certain conditions. There are some weird currents in the thing too. Plus, it does have access to the sea (though it’s constrained, to be sure) and occasionally some fairly weird things have been seen that obviously came from the ocean (seals and the like, IIRC). To me, that’s not a hoax, it’s merely people mis-identifying stuff and/or allowing their imaginations to get the better of them. That said, there is zero chance that whatever this is (I’m guessing large lake fish or perhaps a large aquatic ocean animal, or just weird lake conditions and wakes), it’s not a plesiosaur or anything remotely like that. From what I recall, plesiosaurs were warm water, shallows creatures, which definitely doesn’t fit into Loch Ness. Also, Loch Ness was uncovered, again IIRC, after the last ice age withdrew from the region, so it was pretty much formed by glacial movements in the last million or so years. No way a cut off group of animals last seen in the fossil record over a 70 million years ago would be in this region…where were they for the 69.8 million years waiting for the lake to form and fill?? 😛 ETA: Or 65.9 million years from MrDibble. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/23 "2019-01-15T21:13:25Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m thinking catapult. Perhaps if we built a large badger… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/24 "2019-01-15T21:22:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You wouldn’t say that if you had been there! > While a lot of things about the Loch Ness Monster have certainly been hoaxes, I don’t think the whole thing is a hoax. More like a lot of things have been witnessed in the lake under certain conditions that caused various people to jump to the conclusion that there was a huge lake monster. Having been to Loch Ness, I can see it. It’s pretty creepy in certain conditions. There are some weird currents in the thing too. Plus, it does have access to the sea (though it’s constrained, to be sure) and occasionally some fairly weird things have been seen that obviously came from the ocean (seals and the like, IIRC). To me, that’s not a hoax, it’s merely people mis-identifying stuff and/or allowing their imaginations to get the better of them. . Well, yes. The Monster is a hoax, but not all reported spottings are necessarily a hoax. Reasonable suggestion include a Greenland shark (which can live in Fresh water and love salmon)or a Wels catfish (which get up to 15 feet and 600 pounds and some were apparently released into the Loch). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/25 "2019-01-15T21:34:17Z")
I guess our definition of ‘hoax’ is simply different then. As the first sightings (recorded anyway) were in something like 500AD, I don’t think the folks were making up what they THOUGHT they saw, merely thinking they were seeing something they weren’t (like a large shark, a weird wake or wave or a large fresh water fish…or maybe even several they thought were one animal)…though I concede that parts of the story were certainly embellished (i.e. I doubt that someone basically saying ‘The Power Of Christ COMPELS YOU!’ to make it go away actually happened :p). I simply think that they didn’t just make it all up, but saw…something. Which isn’t a ‘hoax’ in my own lexicon. YMMV of course. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/26 "2019-01-15T21:40:30Z")
Did any pilgrimages follow St Columba’s exorcism? Because hoaxes for the tourist dollar were a big thing back then. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/27 "2019-01-15T21:51:27Z")
The Truth is out there. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/28 "2019-01-15T22:26:28Z")
I…am the Loch Ness Monster. I am also Spartacus. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/29 "2019-01-15T22:31:21Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > I…am the Loch Ness Monster. > I am also Spartacus. And now we know how you’ve been evading detection all these years - you’re actually in Tennessee. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/30 "2019-01-15T23:34:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Reasonable suggestion include a Greenland shark (which can live in Fresh water and love salmon) They can also live for multiple centuries - they’re suspected to be the longest living vertebrate. One particularly ancient critter occasionally coming up to slurp up a rotting deer carcass or some such( they love carrion apparently )every decade or two for a century or three could lend itself to the persistence of folklore. ---
**Author:** ![ohiomstr2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/82dd89/32.png) [@ohiomstr2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ohiomstr2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/31 "2019-01-16T03:54:55Z")
There has been a plethora of this nonsense on the board of late, so I am going to challenge the OP to provide a credible cite for the anecdotes related. I am especially interested in the museum specified, not having run across this one before. Professional zoologists, geologists and oceanographers do not often study these anecdotes because they are busy doing real science. As a result, most of the easily accessible information refuting these fringe ideas is presented in a “pop science” format. However, a cursory look at the Google master reveals: Loch Ness > **[How scientists debunked the Loch Ness Monster](https://www.vox.com/2015/4/21/8459353/loch-ness-monster)** > > These are the top 5 reasons that tell us the Loch Ness Monster isn't real. Biblical flood > **[Twenty-One Reasons Noah’s Worldwide Flood Never Happened | Skeptical Inquirer](https://skepticalinquirer.org/2018/03/twenty-one-reasons-noahs-worldwide-flood-never-happened/)** > > Here’s a geologist’s critical analysis of false perceptions held by many creationists about the origin of the Grand Canyon and the age of the Earth. Bermuda triangle > **[The Bermuda Triangle: A Breeding Ground for Rogue Waves or a Pit of Human...](https://www.livescience.com/63242-bermuda-triangle-rogue-waves.html)** > > Many tales have been told about the Bermuda Triangle. But there are plausible, scientific explanations for the vanishings. As a recovering believer I understand the need to accept these stories at face value. In my own case it was through ignorance. Fortunately I was able to find out that the real world is far more fascinating than giant floods, phantom zones and sea monsters. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/32 "2019-01-16T11:24:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > 66 million. :smack: You are correct. I completely misread the page I was looking at. Still, it’s a helluva long gap. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/33 "2019-01-16T12:47:50Z")
There was a recent show on the Loch Ness monster and even its most ardent believers have admitted there is nothing there. Serchers have used sonar, fish finders, submarines, etc… and found nothing. Now what IS interesting is where this all came from. Well the theory is back in the 1890’s they released giant Asian catfish into the Loch to attract sport fishermen. Well those can live 50 years and grow to be 15 feet long and its funny because for the next 40-50 years is when most of the best “sightings” occurred. Then there was that fake Nessy picture in the 20’s. Then the giant catfish died off and the locals made up stories to keep the tourist money coming in. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/34 "2019-01-16T12:50:54Z")
I’d like to add that many people who live and work under and around large bodies of water, probably from time to time have seen something strange, unusual, or even scary which they might be clueless about what it was. I remember just snorkeling in a farm pond and getting scared when a big snapping turtle swam by. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/35 "2019-01-16T15:09:32Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Then the giant catfish died off and the locals made up stories to keep the tourist money coming in. If they lived long enough to make 15’, why did they die off? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/36 "2019-01-16T16:13:26Z")
Everyone knows Nessie is a massive aquatic haggis, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/37 "2019-01-16T16:20:33Z")
[A relevant XKCD](https://xkcd.com/1235/) ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/38 "2019-01-16T16:20:36Z")
Suggested viewing for the OP: The Werner Herzog “documentary” [Incident at Loch Ness](https://youtu.be/XPaDD9dXkhU). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/39 "2019-01-16T23:46:14Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If they lived long enough to make 15’, why did they die off? They turned into dragons. Not fancy ones, like you get from koi, just boring, ol’ garden variety dragons that aren’t worth mentioning in legends. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809/40 "2019-01-17T07:59:39Z")
What [the 1869 article](https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84026994/1869-03-15/ed-1/seq-3/) reads more like is yet another case in which the rotting carcass of a basking shark is mistaken for a sea monster, as with [the _Zuiyō Maru_ monster](http://www.paleo.cc/paluxy/plesios.htm), [the ‘Stronsay Beast’](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stronsay_Beast) or [the ‘monster’ washed ashore in Maine last summer](https://www.livescience.com/63119-sea-monster-is-basking-shark.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loch-ness-monster-is-was-a-plesiosaur-does-it-still-exist-in-the-atlantic/827809.md?page=3)