Gobear, IMHO you are not “among the unsaved” – you have been driven away from Christ by assholes who failed to grasp the nature of your being, and He, being merciful, will fully understand that point. And, from your quoting The Abolition of Man, you will grasp precisely what I agree with Lewis in seeing you in salvific terms as being.
Peace!
This guy seems sorta in the same vein: offering bribes (instead of threats) to do what he thinks is the right thing.
"Hi: I’ve decided that I own Iraq now. So if you want any Iraqi water, you have to accept Jesus.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/5554317.htm
I consider myself an idealist. The bible is probably a lot of allegory loosely based in factual events throughout history. I want desperately to believe in the idea of heaven and a place of no pain or suffering. But living in this modern world has given me enough education not believe anything blindly. So I take the bible “with a grain of salt”.
There is not enough space, nor can I type as fast as my mind works, to say all that I believe and get an accurate point across. But here is my little RANT.
I think that the hardest thing to come to terms with is that no one individual knows the truth. We all hope that our “team” is the right one to be on. So we fight and argue over where the proof is or what is more logical. The Christians (I use the term loosely) seem to spend a lot of time worrying about what their neighbor is doing. Jesus Christ (where the term Christian came from) said to pull log out of your own eye prior to removing the sliver from another. Or let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and judge not lest ye be judged.
I consider myself an idealist just because I don’t think that there is anyone out there who is “right”. I grew up believing in God(all I knew), became an atheist(rebellion), switched to agnosticism(informed opinion), and back to God(miracle of parenthood). Wow, full circle. I won’t jump on anyone’s bandwagon. I believe in humankind and that we have the been given the ability to police ourselves. But it is so hard to watch people quote the bible like it is the only way to live. If that were the case then I should beat my wife and have more than one along with a couple of slaves all while I might be sacrificing my children. God Forgive me. But the bible is written by man!!! Albeit inspired, but still written, translated, published, and mangled by man.
Firstly if you are a Christian give up the old testament. Jesus, Your saviour said so. read it. its in there. Secondly, to all atheists where the hell did we come from? If there is no god why bother? who cares? To everyone else, maybe, just maybe, that it is all the same god, the same team, just different translations .
Rant
Welcome to the boards, Ian. Unfortunately, if you expect Christians to be of the “live and let live” sort, you’re going to be sorely disappointed with a handful of them around these parts. Just don’t let them get to you, try to represent your beliefs with tolerance and fairness, and you’ll do just fine. If you screw up, there will be no shortage of people to “correct” you. But you sound like you have the sort of cautioned and balanced viewpoint that does well hereabouts.
See, your first mistake was expecting to get a rational response from someone who believes in a Magical Sky Pixie, a term i’ve used in the past on news groups and I think I first saw here many years ago.
You should have treated the fellow as the insane and dangerouse person he is. Don’t make sudden movements, eye contact, or tap on his cage. This will enrage him and may cause him to have a fit (commonly known in religious circles as “speaking in tongues”). The cure is to send away for Peter Popoff’s ‘Miracle Spring Water’. Take the box it comes in and whack the believer over the head with it. A 2x4 will also work in a pinch.
About 15 years ago an earnest young man comes to my door asking me about Jebus. Seems he wanted me to know what Jesus could do for me if I let him into my life. I calmly explained that I believed in the religion of my ancestors the head of which was Odin (my character in D&D just having recently converted to that God, so it wasn’t strickly a lie). So, we stood at the door for about 45 minutes discussing things with me telling him about how good Odin was. How he plucked out his eye to drink from the pool of wisdom. How he knew that he would die come Ragnarook, but that a better world would come of it. Most of it I got from books read as a kid and the rest made up on the spot. I finally told him I had to go and to find Odin on his own. He seemed deeply disappointed. We never did talk about Jebus after that first bit. I think I missed making a convert and starting my own religion! Ah, well, we can’t all be L. Ron Hubbard.
IMHO, there is an unwritten (but enforced) 11th commandment:
“Don’t question anything in THIS book and it would be better for you if you just didn’t think at all. Thought and logic are suspect and could lead to a lack of firm belief.”
Debating these guys is just a waste of time. They aren’t EVER going to say;
“Hmmmm. You have a point there. I’ve been basing my entire life on a barbaric code of superstition that dates from the bronze age.”
Instead, they will ignore, misinterpret, or even lie if the logic gets irrefutable.
Personally, I got tired of either letting them assume I believed while I fumed inside or telling them my real opinion of what they believed and offending the crap out of them. Now I just start discussing the present Chinese political situation, the shortage of water in Timbuktu, anything to get them to shut up with that crap.
Testy
I recently went away for a weekend break with most of the people from my church, we booked the whole hotel.
Normally, I would lock the door of a hotel room, but on this occasion, I didn’t bother - these are all people that I know personally and trust as much as members of my own biological family.
All I can really extract from this is that I [know and trust] the people that I [know and trust] more than the people that I have never met, hold the front page.
I am so enjoying this post, nothing like a sane and eloquent atheist to make my day 
I was given a completely religious free education, and as far as I’m concerned, it’s the best thing ever.
In Belgium, where i’m from, voting is mandatory, it’s one of the few places in the world where voting isn’t a right, it’s a duty.
Voting offices/places tend to be public buildings, and schools. Even catholic schools (funded by the catholic church, as opposed to state funded schools) need to remove all signs of RC religion in the room where voting is going to be conducted. And I do agree, the 10 commandments are not universal rules for good behaviour, good behaviour is relative, and is intrinsically linked with culture.
(Amazonian Indians wouldn’t mind if you coveted their wife…and go tell the kalahari Bushmen they can only have 1 god, poor pantheist people that theu are…)
psah! I get fed up with the arrogance of (some) religious people, sometimes.
Gee, I thought this was a thread about anti-est’S.
Though I guess most atheists don’t practice est either.
I find it ironic – and more than a little bit annoying (being both an atheist and a Texan) – that you bristle at the fact that Christian Guy painted all atheists with the same brush of untrustworthy, anti-socials, and yet you do the exact same thing by coloring all Texans as small-minded, bible-thumping evangelicals.
Quiet, you. Not every theist is a nutjob. There are many many theist non-nutjobs, in fact. It’s just that they rarely beat you over the head with their theism as their nutjob kinfolk do.
Hehe! Okay, Mr. Peabody!
RexDart, you want to make Christian Guy’s head explode? Find yourself a law enforcement officer and tell CG that the LEO is an atheist.
:insert evil grin here:
You misunderstood my point. Since Texas is mostly bible-thumping evangelicals, the culture is predominated with them, it is unlikely that a Christian there will ever be in a situation where his beliefs will be challenged. There are certainly some people in Texas who are critical thinkers and skeptics who might be up to the task of challenging a dogmatic Christian’s belief system, but it strikes me as unlikely that this encounter would ever occur. Probably alot of non-Christians live “in the closet” down there, and don’t reveal their nonbelief for fear of being harassed by the Christians trying to “save” them. If your friends and family are all Christians, then the only chance you’d have to encounter a non-theist willing to challenge your beliefs would be in an academic forum or in another social setting. I suspect there aren’t many places in Texas where people are sitting around having conversations critical of religion. And if non-Christians aren’t visible and present in your community, the Christian may begin to think of atheism as a marginalized and very extreme philosophy.
Heck, I grew up in Illinois and I didn’t even know there were people who didn’t believe in god until I was reading about the Soviet Union in 4th grade social studies class. 3 years later I became a deist, the next year an agnostic, and finally the next year I myself was an atheist. To change your beliefs, you first have to know there’s a viable alternative.
As for the Ten Commandments being the basis of common mores, my favourite comeback goes along the lines of:
“So, do you honor Sabbath?”
Rexdart, when Christian Guy said that if you were his co-worker, he’d lock his stuff up - what did your best friend say? Did he say anything in defense of your character? (Assuming that you have character, of course. 
)
I had a CG friend in college with whom I had this same discussion. He stated that if by some miracle I could prove there was no God, the would immeadiately go and start raping attractive co-eds, b/c he did not have to worry about punishment in the afterlife (I am not making this up). I made me realize that I was glad some people believe in the magic sky pixie. Maybe it is an invention with a benificial side effect (it keeps some of the idiots in line).
Not that all theist are idiots, only some of them
Once again, you are making broad, and false, generalizations. I can understand to a point. The only exposure you have is a congregation of a baptist church. Even if you argue that baptist are “mostly bible thumping evangelicals,” you still would be innacurate because baptists do not make a majority of Texans.
I am curious, were you in Houston, or the suburbs. Like any big city, the suburbs tend to be more conservative. You see, I live inside the loop, as in loop 610. Where I see more diversity.
If you go down Hillcroft, a street I grew up next to, you would see numerous middle-eastern restaraunts. Go down Bellaire, you see asain markets. I grew up in a neighborhood that was largely Jewish.
Next time you come to Houston, STAY AWAY FROM THE BAPTIST CHURCHES. Unless, of course, South Main Baptist Church, which is a very moderate congregation.
Another point, I can get just as annoyed with Atheists who feel they need to convert others, or who have a “chip on their shoulders.” They can be quite annoying as well. It is one thing to have your beliefs, another to push them on others. At work, I do not get in religious, or theistic debates.
Oh, and you Baptists out there. The ones who bring your beat-up bibles with all the red cloth markers to church. You ain’t fooling anyone. We all know well that you purposely scuff them up to look like you have been studying it. Give me a break!
After getting really annoyed, I think I’d have a lot of fun with this situation. When the cheque comes: “Well, I’d split this with you, but you know us atheists… can’t resist the urge to steal.” On the way out, “By the way, I’m going to ram into your car… you know, cause I’m an ATHEIST.”
To the east of Spur 408, (west south west of Dallas) there is a rather new, nicely constructed “Church of the King”. So not everyone in Texas is a Biblethumping Baptist. These folks worship Elvis Presley.
I wonder what sort of vestments the pastor wears. And I bet the men in that congregation all have great (in the sense of immense) sideburns.