# Lockerbie bomber to be released **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058 "2009-08-20T11:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/61 "2009-08-21T05:47:31Z")
> [@dbuzman](#): > > Are you really that fucking stupid? You make an asinine comment about how "the right wing in the US will throw all manner of nonsense about on this one. " while ignoring the fact that so far the only one “throwing all manner of nonsense” is someone who belongs to the left wing. That is what my previous post was illustrating. I’ll leave the fucking stupidity to those with a flair for it. You, for example. Do try to take in the chain of posts for a second. It will require to to hold more than one sentence in mind at the same time, but have a sit down, brace yourself, and give it a go. Then, you may note that Really Not All That Bright posted some comments from the NYT, prompting my response to him/her: “Oh aye, I dare say the right wing in the US will throw all manner of nonsense about on this one.” With me so far? Not actually condemning ms clinton’s statement at all, or even referring to it. Quite how you conclude that’s hypocritical would puzzle me, if your previous posts here hadn’t given me a pretty good clue that you’re a bit thick. Of course you may feel I’m a bit premature in guessing the right wing will take more umbrage than the left, but not to worry. All we have to do is wait a couple of days then compare the reaction of both sides, and see who’s come out with the more ranty nonsense on it. Seem fair to you? ---
**Author:** ![dbuzman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de0a6/32.png) [@dbuzman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dbuzman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/62 "2009-08-21T06:03:38Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I’ll leave the fucking stupidity to those with a flair for it. You, for example. > > Do try to take in the chain of posts for a second. It will require to to hold more than one sentence in mind at the same time, but have a sit down, brace yourself, and give it a go. > > Then, you may note that Really Not All That Bright posted some comments from the NYT, prompting my response to him/her: > > “Oh aye, I dare say the right wing in the US will throw all manner of nonsense about on this one.” > > With me so far? Not actually condemning ms clinton’s statement at all, or even referring to it. Quite how you conclude that’s hypocritical would puzzle me, if your previous posts here hadn’t given me a pretty good clue that you’re a bit thick. > > Of course you may feel I’m a bit premature in guessing the right wing will take more umbrage than the left, but not to worry. All we have to do is wait a couple of days then compare the reaction of both sides, and see who’s come out with the more ranty nonsense on it. Seem fair to you? Yes, I guess you are just that fucking stupid. Again, you made a disparaging comment about the right wing doing something they haven’t actually done while ignoring the fact a member of the left wing did exactly what you were putting the right wing down for. Of course you weren’t "condemning ms clinton’s statement at all, or even referring to it. " That’s the point and is what makes you a hypocrite. And when I point this out, you accuse me of saying you called her a member of the right wing and of talking nonsense which I did not do. The only “thick” one here appears to be you. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/63 "2009-08-21T07:06:20Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > I might stupidly enough have gotten myself into a discussion about this in a rather hostile forum - where the rhetoric goes mostly like “outrage outrage, blah blah, all because of oil, they should have let the fucker rot in prison” - by claiming that there are doubts expressed of the trial’s validity. I could really use some information to beef up my understanding. Lot of info [here](http://leninology4.blogspot.com/2007/06/paul-foot-john-ashtons-1995.html) - this is a blog but a reproduction of some Paul Foot work. While there is political supposition there, there is still masses of information that shows why it was an unsound conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/64 "2009-08-21T07:59:57Z")
> [@dbuzman](#): > > Yes, I guess you are just that fucking stupid. Again, you made a disparaging comment about the right wing doing something they haven’t actually done while ignoring the fact a member of the left wing did exactly what you were putting the right wing down for. > > Of course you weren’t "condemning ms clinton’s statement at all, or even referring to it. " That’s the point and is what makes you a hypocrite. > > And when I point this out, you accuse me of saying you called her a member of the right wing and of talking nonsense which I did not do. > > The only “thick” one here appears to be you. Well, I’m a patient man, so let me try this once more with the logic equivalent of baby steps…but really, if this fails, I’d probably need Big Bird and Elmo to put it into terms you’re comfortable with. I made the following comment: _“I dare say the right wing in the US will throw all manner of nonsense about on this one.”_ That is what is called a prediction. “I dare say will [y]”. See that? It’s a guess about what will happen in the future. The future. That’s what we call things that haven’t happened yet. With me so far? So criticising this on the grounds that x hasn’t actually done y at the time of writing is missing the point. Predicting things that have already happened isn’t actually predicting. Still with me? Good, let’s move on to part 2 of this lovely little tale that I like to call “When Mister Logic Said Goodbye to Dbuzman” You then feel that I’m being a big meanie because I was “ignoring the fact a member of the left wing did exactly what you were putting the right wing down for” Now, going back to what I actually said, do you remember that? Yes, that’s right, well done! I said “throw all manner of nonsense about on this one”. So for me to be a hypocrite, the comment of Mrs Clinton’s you’re talking about would have to be nonsense. So, let’s have a look at what was actually said, shall we: _“On Wednesday Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in televised remarks that she opposed the release. She added that she took “this very personally” because she knows the families of some of the victims, a group of students from Syracuse University in New York who died in the bombing.”_ Which you think is throwing around all manner of nonsense? Now, here’s the thing (and trust me, I’ve got my fingers crossed for you on this one, so let’s hope you can follow it). It’s not actually a nonsensical statement. See? Let’s go back to an example of a non-sensical statement. Remember the ones that we were actually discussing at the time? No? Let me remind you: \*"Boycott Scotland no tourists no business nothing It is their choice, honor the sentence or treat them just like Iran." \* Now, can you just about see why talk of treating scotland just like Iran is a bit nonsensical. And can you see why saying that you feel a personal connection to an incident because you knew students who died - while probably a lie, as it was a politician who said it - actually is reasonable logic? Nope, you probably don’t. Fuck, maybe I can commission The Backyardigans to try and explain this one. I reckon some primary colours to help get your attention and a couple of catchy songs might really help you with this. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/65 "2009-08-21T08:37:38Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Nope, you probably don’t. Fuck, maybe I can commission The Backyardigans to try and explain this one. I reckon some primary colours to help get your attention and a couple of catchy songs might really help you with this. Ouch dude, _ouch_. Still, checkmate on your part. ---
**Author:** ![dbuzman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de0a6/32.png) [@dbuzman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dbuzman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/66 "2009-08-21T09:44:38Z")
Here are some baby steps for you. > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > \ I made the following comment: > > _“I dare say the right wing in the US will throw all manner of nonsense about on this one.”_ > > That is what is called a prediction. No, that is what is called a guess. And a sarcastic guess at that. You have no idea what anyone will do or say. You are trying make the right wing look bad when they haven’t done or said anything at the time of the Ops link. > [@](#): > > “I dare say will [y]”. See that? It’s a guess about what will happen in the future. See that? You even said it was a guess. You can’t keep your story straight in your own posts. > [@](#): > > You then feel that I’m being a big meanie because I was “ignoring the fact a member of the left wing did exactly what you were putting the right wing down for” Where did I use words like “big meanie” ? You keep saying I said things I didn’t say. That’s a tactic that someone who is wrong and knows they are and can’t prove their opponent is wrong uses. > [@](#): > > Now, going back to what I actually said, do you remember that? Yes, that’s right, well done! I said “throw all manner of nonsense about on this one”. So for me to be a hypocrite, the comment of Mrs Clinton’s you’re talking about would have to be nonsense. So, let’s have a look at what was actually said, shall we: > > _“On Wednesday Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in televised remarks that she opposed the release. She added that she took “this very personally” because she knows the families of some of the victims, a group of students from Syracuse University in New York who died in the bombing.”_ > > Which you think is throwing around all manner of nonsense? Considering that there is good reason to believe he was wrongly convicted, then yes that is nonsense and you know it. > [@](#): > > Now, can you just about see why talk of treating scotland just like Iran is a bit nonsensical. And can you see why saying that you feel a personal connection to an incident because you knew students who died - while probably a lie, as it was a politician who said it - actually is reasonable logic? Except when that statement is preceded by the statement “Hillary Clinton said in televised remarks that she opposed the release” of a man who is probably innocent, it isn’t logic. It’s pandering to the emotions of her constituents. And, quite frankly trivializes the actual tragedy. > [@](#): > > Nope, you probably don’t. Fuck, maybe I can commission The Backyardigans to try and explain this one. I reckon some primary colours to help get your attention and a couple of catchy songs might really help you with this. Maybe you should ask them to explain it you because you need some major children’s show help to get it. ---
**Author:** ![dbuzman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de0a6/32.png) [@dbuzman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dbuzman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/67 "2009-08-21T09:47:35Z")
> [@Captain\_Awesome](#): > > Ouch dude, _ouch_. Still, checkmate on your part. And if you really believe that, then you should ask **Gary Kumquat** to notify you when the Backyardigans are going to enlighten him so you can be educated too. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/68 "2009-08-21T10:13:33Z")
Yeah, fuck those dumb shits who are screeching and tearing their hair out over his release, without even giving a toss if he is guilty or not. I find them far more disturbing than a bunch of medieval-minded muslims jumping up and down in joy at his homecoming. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/69 "2009-08-21T10:37:53Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I think he did plant it. I’m not convinced that anyone was looking. As to the timing mechanism, well that’s not hard. At the least, he was involved. Now, he shouldn’t have been convicted alone. This was probably backed by Quaddafi and who knows how many people. That’s it, is it? “You think”. Where are you getting your information? How much have you read on this subject? OK, just one little little explanation from you then: since the detonator was known to be attached to a 45-minute timer that was triggered at 4,000 metres, can you explain why it didn’t go off en-route between Malta and Frankfurt, or between Frankfurt and London? I promise you, if it were a US citizen that had been subject to the trial (closed court, no jury) in which Al Megrahi was convicted, and convicted with such scant evidence, I can guarantee you that you would be hopping about and the State Department would be threatening serious diplomatic retribution. Remember the phrase “beyond reasonable doubt”. Hey, I entertain the possibility he may be the killer - but there is so much reasonable doubt as to make his conviction exceptionally unsound. You seem to be happy that just anyone was convicted, regardless of the evidence against them. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/70 "2009-08-21T10:41:23Z")
This was published in the very conservative (Newscorp) Australian earlier this week. [http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,25937961-15084,00.html](http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,25937961-15084,00.html) The claim is that it was a revenge by Iran covered up due to oil trading concerns of both Iran and the US. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/71 "2009-08-21T11:23:36Z")
In the context of the time, it would be a bit odd if Iran didn’t plot and carry out revenge after the USS Vincennes shot down flight 655. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/72 "2009-08-21T13:31:29Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > The claim is that it was a revenge by Iran covered up due to oil trading concerns of both Iran and the US. That was the original line of inquiry- the Syrian suspects were supposed to have been backed by Iran, in retaliation for the shooting down of IAL 655 by the _USS Vincennes_- and it was mysteriously abandoned. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/73 "2009-08-21T13:54:56Z")
> [@dbuzman](#): > > No, that is what is called a guess. And a sarcastic guess at that. You have no idea what anyone will do or say. You are trying make the right wing look bad when they haven’t done or said anything at the time of the Ops link… See that? You even said it was a guess. You can’t keep your story straight in your own posts. Splendid. Running out of options, you go for sophistry over wording. By all means continue with the desperate hairsplitting, but it’s a fairly reasonable usage and easily enough backed up by [cites](http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/predict) “Main Entry: **predict** Part of Speech: verb Definition: **express an outcome in advance** Synonyms: adumbrate, anticipate, augur, be afraid, call, call it, conclude, conjecture, croak, crystal-ball divine, envision, figure, figure out, forebode, forecast, foresee, forespeak, foretell, gather, **guess** , have a hunch, hazard a guess” [QUOTE=dbuzman] Where did I use words like “big meanie” ? You keep saying I said things I didn’t say. That’s a tactic that someone wh o is wrong and knows they are and can’t prove their opponent is wrong uses. [/QUOTE] The tactic you’re referring to is called strawman debating. I leave it to anyone else reading this thread who hasn’t long since got bored of the pair of us to decide if the use of “Big meanie” is a strawman, or a fairly obvious rhetorical device intended as a childish insult. [QUOTE=dbuzman] Except when that statement is preceded by the statement “Hillary Clinton said in televised remarks that she opposed the release” of a man who is probably innocent, it isn’t logic. It’s pandering to the emotions of her constituents. And, quite frankly trivializes the actual tragedy. [/QUOTE] Yes, well spotted - politicians pander to the emotions of their constituents. That however does not make it nonsense, or put it on a par with talk of severing diplomatic relations betweek the US and part of the UK. Now, do be a pal and hurry back with a fresh round of wibbling, there’s a good chump. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/74 "2009-08-21T14:01:45Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > In the context of the time, it would be a bit odd if Iran didn’t plot and carry out revenge after the USS Vincennes shot down flight 655. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That was the original line of inquiry- the Syrian suspects were supposed to have been backed by Iran, in retaliation for the shooting down of IAL 655 by the _USS Vincennes_- and it was mysteriously abandoned. Oops. Just realized you had already posted more or less exactly what I was going to say. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/75 "2009-08-21T14:53:16Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Hmmmm… after reading these responses and further research, there does seem to be more here than meets the eye. Blame my naive assumption that the guy convicted of the crime actually comitted the crime. > > Damn you all for ruining my perfectly good outrage!!! Same here. My initial reaction was that he should rot in prison. But if he was just a fall guy, that changes everything. Once in a while, it sure would be nice to know the entire truth about something - anything. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/76 "2009-08-21T15:00:29Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Same here. My initial reaction was that he should rot in prison. But if he was just a fall guy, that changes everything. Once in a while, it sure would be nice to know the entire truth about something - anything. I wore the same pair of boxers two days in a row earlier this week. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/77 "2009-08-21T15:07:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I wore the same pair of boxers two days in a row earlier this week. Finally! Simple fact, with no quibbling or obfuscation! (does the happy dance) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/78 "2009-08-21T15:22:30Z")
You can never step into the same pair of boxers twice; they won’t be the same boxers, and you won’t be the same man. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/79 "2009-08-21T15:26:02Z")
_looks around furtively_ _I never took them off._ ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058/80 "2009-08-21T15:48:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I wore the same pair of boxers two days in a row earlier this week. But did you wear them the same way, or did you flip them backwards or inside-out on the second day? THE PUBLIC DESERVES THE TRUTH. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lockerbie-bomber-to-be-released/507058.md?page=5)