# Logical ending to horrible debate? \[God and the problem of suffering.\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927 "2003-09-11T06:20:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Deathstatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Deathstatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deathstatic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/1 "2003-09-11T06:20:39Z")
I don’t know how many times I have been in a debate–online and IRL–and the discussion of God as a trickster (or evil God) comes up. Where one side, the side that believes vehemently that there is a personal God, says, “Bad things happen so you can know what good is…” or “In order to love, we must experience hate” and "God knows more than we do. The other side interjects, “Riiiiight… the all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipotent God couldn’t find a way, other than torturing us, in order for us to enjoy life” Then the subject of heaven comes up: “Well, if I have to suffer in order to love… then how is heaven possible? To my understanding, everything in heaven is sunshine, lollipops and rainbows everything. Why can’t it be like that here?” And the discussion goes on and on and on ad infinitum until one side just gives up. So, I was wondering, is there a logical way to end this argument? Is there a way to come to an understanding? Perhaps even meet in the middle? Just any way at all to make everyone in the discussion go, “wow, interesting. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Let’s move on.” Or do I have to just agree to disagree with people as stubborn as me? I know I have stated my viewpoint in the past… but I would like to leave that aside for now, which I hope everyone else that joins this discussion will also respect and follow. I don’t want this discussion to be typical; I want to know what someone has said before that makes logical sense in this argument to both sides. ---
**Author:** ![SunTzu2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@SunTzu2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunTzu2U)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/2 "2003-09-11T06:23:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I was wondering, is there a logical way to end this argument? Yeah drop a hand grenade and take it up in the afterlife! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Deathstatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Deathstatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deathstatic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/3 "2003-09-11T06:24:36Z")
Sadly, that is what I figured. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/4 "2003-09-11T06:32:25Z")
Religious zealots are immune to logic. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/5 "2003-09-11T12:17:55Z")
Abandon the concept of a loving god, eternal bliss, or a knowable universe. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/6 "2003-09-11T12:25:55Z")
I suggest posting the Tao Te Ching and stories from Zen Buddhism. No one will understand them, but it will at least be more interesting than the bickering. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/7 "2003-09-13T22:03:53Z")
I’d recommend C.S. Lewis’ _The Problem of Pain_ for a full examination of the issue. At the risk of extreme oversimplification, I would summarize his position in three points: 1. Even if you were a “nice person”, and lived a long happy life completely free of pain and sorrow, there would still be something wrong. 2. Pain and suffering are a signal that something is terribly wrong and needs fixing. 3. God is like a physician in that he absolutely insists on treating the disease and not just the symptoms. In short, you have to accept the Christian belief that we are in a state of sin (or “unenlightened” if you prefer a less loaded term"). This is not a very popular idea these days- Lewis said that nowadays Christianity doesn’t just have to convince people that it’s the cure, it has to convince people they’re sick to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/8 "2003-09-13T22:13:46Z")
A logical religious debate? Oxymoron if ever there was one. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/9 "2003-09-13T23:40:56Z")
When you come to a fork in the road, take it. If you see the Buddha on the road to enlightenment, kill him. The world is an orange… Well, isn’t it? Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Rayn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rayn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayn)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/10 "2003-09-14T03:55:21Z")
I am God and so are you. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/11 "2003-09-14T14:03:02Z")
To extend your question… has anyone been able to convince a beleiver that the Bible was written by humans and not God ? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/12 "2003-09-14T14:17:27Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** Edited thread title for clarity. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/13 "2003-09-14T16:19:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lumpy \* > \*\*I’d recommend C.S. Lewis’ _The Problem of Pain_ for a full examination of the issue. At the risk of extreme oversimplification, I would summarize his position in three points: > > 1. Even if you were a “nice person”, and lived a long happy life completely free of pain and sorrow, there would still be something wrong. > > 2. Pain and suffering are a signal that something is terribly wrong and needs fixing. > > 3. God is like a physician in that he absolutely insists on treating the disease and not just the symptoms. > > In short, you have to accept the Christian belief that we are in a state of sin (or “unenlightened” if you prefer a less loaded term"). This is not a very popular idea these days- Lewis said that nowadays Christianity doesn’t just have to convince people that it’s the cure, it has to convince people they’re sick to begin with. \*\* Like much of Lewis’ apologia, this makes sense until you actually think abuot it. God COULD treat the disease (de-sin-ify us) or treat the symptoms (provide a non-painful reminder of sinfulness). Besides, it’s putting the cart before the horse to assume that bad things cause suffering, rather than things that cause suffering being bad. I mean, if licking exposed power lines didn’t shock you, could you really say it was bad to lick power lines? ---
**Author:** ![juan2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@juan2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/juan2003)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/14 "2003-09-15T06:41:41Z")
God is like a loving parent. He allows things to happen that we might not like or understand but are ultimately in our best interest. If you accept the idea of an afterlife, especially an eternal one, then the limited amount of suffering we endure in this life is negligible. In order to love, we must have free will. Even if we were in the Garden of Eden, some people would choose to do things that would cause harm to others. Because free will makes the prediction of our actions impossible, God needed to create a world that would adequately test us. The problems give us a chance to show our character. One could choose to help others to do the opposite. I think that God will fill Heaven with people that make the effort to reduce suffering. ---
**Author:** ![heresiarch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@heresiarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heresiarch)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/15 "2003-09-15T07:42:54Z")
You could say that the pain and evil are necessary to God’s plan, but, mercifully, we experience this pain in our finite mortal life. The pain becomes insignificant when you consider that the next life is eternal. Personally, I don’t think that’s quite good enough. I can’t imagine telling a grieving widow that her pain was insignificant, because she would “only” experience it for a few more decades. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/16 "2003-09-15T14:24:52Z")
> [@](#): > > God is like a loving parent. He allows things to happen that we might not like or understand but are ultimately in our best interest. If you accept the idea of an afterlife, especially an eternal one, then the limited amount of suffering we endure in this life is negligible. So there’s nothing morally wrong with torturing random people, because they’ll die soon and go off to their eternal reward? God does this (through disease, injury, natural disaster, etc.) Also, positing a creator-of-the-universe God, there’s no reason why we couldn’t love without free will. Also, if God creates a nasty universe, why should we assume that he values niceness? ---
**Author:** ![Schnauzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@Schnauzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnauzer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/17 "2003-09-15T14:57:06Z")
As Deathstatic has found, debate is largely pointless between two sides with strong beliefs on a subject which has no tangible presence. I think each individual must live their life according to their own beliefs, provided that it does no harm to others. Who mentioned free will? If God is omnipotent, there can be no such thing as free will. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee59a6/32.png) [@CrazyMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyMonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/18 "2003-09-15T18:30:30Z")
For the record, I think this is a silly debate. I mean, you could sit here and debate all day about why I chose to eat a cheeseburger for lunch today, but unless I come out and state my reasons, you’re really just arguing over guesses. However, in the interest of playing along, I’ll toss my guess out: I think that ignoring the evidence that evolution does in fact exist is pretty silly. Therefore, since I believe in God, I am forced to believe evolution is God’s groovy method of creation. Challenge, in a variety of forms, is necessary to keep the evolution train rolling – without it, there’s no fuel to keep us developing into the best darn lifeforms we can be. _But hey, if God’s all-powerful and stuff, can’t he like, create the best darn lifeforms possible in like, an instant? That’d be way better than making us suffer through disease, famine, and Celine Dion._ Try convincing an infinite, omniscient being that exists in all times at once rather than travelling through time like us little pipsqueeks that a few million years _isn’t_ an instant, and see how far you get. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/19 "2003-09-15T20:00:57Z")
Study the soil for a moment. It naturally produces weeds. No one plants them; no one waters them. They even stubbornly push through cracks of a dry sidewalk. Millions of useless weeds sprout like there’s no tomorrow, strangling our crops and ruining our lawns. Pull them out by the roots, and there will be more tomorrow. They are nothing but a curse! Consider how much of the earth is uninhabitable. There are millions of square miles of barren deserts in Africa and other parts of the world. Most of Australia is nothing but miles and miles of useless desolate land. Not only that, but the earth is constantly shaken with massive earthquakes. Its shores are lashed with hurricanes; tornadoes rip through creation with incredible fury; devastating floods soak the land; and terrible droughts parch the soil. Sharks, tigers, lions, snakes, spiders, and disease-carrying mosquitoes attack humanity and suck its life’s blood. The earth’s inhabitants are afflicted with disease, pain, suffering, and death. Think of how many people are plagued with cancer, Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis, heart disease, emphysema, Parkinson’s, and a number of other debilitating illnesses. Consider all the children with leukemia, or people born with crippling diseases or without the mental capability to even feed themselves. All these things should convince thinking minds that something is radically wrong. Did God blow it when He created humanity? What sort of tyrant must our Creator be if this was His master plan? Sadly, many use the issue of suffering as an excuse to reject any thought of God, when its existence is the very reason we should accept Him. Suffering stands as terrible testimony to the truth of the explanation given by the Word of God. But how can we know that the Bible is true? Simply by studying the prophecies of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and 2 Timothy 3. A few minutes of openhearted inspection will convince any honest skeptic that this is no ordinary book. It is the supernatural testament of our Creator about why there is suffering…and what we can do about it. The Bible tells us that God cursed the earth because of Adam’s transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation. In the beginning, God created man perfect, and he lived in a perfect world without suffering. It was heaven on earth. When sin came into the world, death and misery came with it. Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new heaven and a new earth “wherein dwells righteous-ness.” In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease, or death. We are told that no eye has ever seen, nor has any ear heard, neither has any man’s mind ever imagined the wonderful things that God has in store for those who love Him (1 Corinthians 2:9). Think for a moment what it would be like if food grew with the fervor of weeds. Consider how wonderful it would be if the deserts became incredibly fertile, if creation stopped devouring humanity. Imagine if the weather worked for us instead of against us, if disease completely disappeared, if pain was a thing of the past, if death was no more. The dilemma is that we are like a child whose insatiable appetite for chocolate has caused his face to break out with ugly sores. He looks in the mirror and sees a sight that makes him depressed. But instead of giving up his beloved chocolate, he consoles himself by stuffing more into his mouth. Yet, the source of his pleasure is actually the cause of his suffering. The whole face of the earth is nothing but ugly sores of suffering. Everywhere we look we see unspeakable pain. But instead of believing God’s explanation and asking Him to forgive us and change our appetite, we run deeper into sin’s sweet embrace. There we find solace in its temporal pleasures, thus intensifying our pain, both in this life and in the life to come. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927/20 "2003-09-15T20:27:26Z")
Oh, goody, we just did this one in Philsophy class. Svt4Him, does God define sin? Or, could God decide arbitrarily that, e.g, eating shellfish is sinful when it wasn’t before, or was before and isn’t now? Or is sin absolute? Because if God can play with what is sin, it would be trivially easy to make murder not a sin, and thusly (according to you) not harmful at all. Conversely, if there is an absolute standard of sin that God has no domain over, isn’t He a bit of a bastard, what with the natural disasters and all? Hmm. Upon second reading, you seem to be saying that natural disasters are the result of sin. If so, I must ask: is it a sin to be a vengeful mofo? Or, if it’s okay when God does it, why is it not okay when people do it? (Don’t just say because God is God. If no moral rules apply to God, see part of this post right below shellfish.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-ending-to-horrible-debate-god-and-the-problem-of-suffering/200927.md?page=2)