# Logical Errors in the Bible? Show me! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145 "2003-07-03T23:33:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/81 "2003-07-08T00:31:46Z")
Genesis Chapter 4 Verse 15 thru 26 > [@](#): > > 4:15 > And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. > > 4:16 > And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. > > 4:17 > And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. > > 4:18 > And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech. > > 4:19 > And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. > > 4:20 > And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. > > 4:21 > And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. > > 4:22 > And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah. > > 4:23 > And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. > > 4:24 > If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold. > > 4:25 > And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. > > 4:26 > And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. If Adam had 2 sons (Cain and Abel) who did Cain marry when he _went from the presense of the Lord_ Who did thier sons marry? This is probably one of the first logical errors of the bible. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/82 "2003-07-08T03:02:14Z")
Ben: _Cite?_ Sorry Ben, the link is below where Polycarp admitted he did not follow, (actually not believe or agree with) Jesus’ teachings regarding it being wrong to divorce a faithful but abusive spouse or it being wrong for a man to marry a divorced woman. He also did not agree with Jesus’ teachings about not saving for the future or retirement. He also on occasion demonstrated that he won’t “give to he who asks,” (If you want I can demonstrate that one in real time), but I have sort of left him off on that one as an example of where ye of little faith just fall short of the ideal. There was more in the below link but the things I just mentioned gave the least wiggle room. Also I cite the Sermon on the Mount from Matthew for Jesus’ admonishment of these things. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189522&perpage=40&pagenumber=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189522&perpage=40&pagenumber=5) Polycarp: _Badchad: One word of warning. You will not address yourself to my ethical shortcomings in your eyes outside the Pit again._ As I have made clear to you in the past I am not addressing your ethical shortcomings but rather illustrating the inconsistency of where you (representing liberal Christianity) don’t even believe what Jesus quite clearly taught, yet you clearly claim otherwise. It’s not a matter of ethics at all, just what I think is cognitive dissonance on your part. Get it? Regardless, it’s a religious matter and belongs on the great debate board not the pit. Still if you want to say the F-word about me in the pit AGAIN that’s your business.😉 _That’s what it’s there for. Your sniping is turning into personal attacks, which are limited to one forum by the rules you agreed to when you joined this board._ Don’t take it personally. My beef is with the self held “liberal” Christian perspective that they are “reasonable” in their belief systems because they don’t hold the bible as inerrant. You’re being the target of much of my analysis is only because you seem to be the best this board has to offer (certainly the most verbose) with regards to this view, both in my opinion and from what I have seen written by others. As for my sniping, just be glad that I don’t have that much time to devote to the task and as such try to keep my posts short. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/83 "2003-07-08T03:48:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Zahn \* > \*\*I haven’t changed my argument. Give me specific quotes of where I changed my argument if you want to make accusations. My main argument was addressing Card’s assertion that Lot really didn’t feel like his daughters would be raped since he would have been sending them out to homosexuals. > \*\* Sure thing. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Zahn \* > \*\*Also keep in mind this is the same Lot who sleeps with both of his daughters and gets both of them pregnant (Gen 19: 33). And yes the NT refers to him as righteous Lot. Now the morals to these stories is what? > \*\* You said that Lot wasn’t righteous because he slept with his daughters. When I pointed out that he didn’t willingly commit incest… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Zahn \* > \*\*The Bible mostly having a misogynist point of view makes sure it states that it was the daughters that got their father to drink from the wine. It doesn’t blame Lot for being overly indulgent. And assuming he really didn’t know he had sex with his daughters, does anyone think he sort of had a clue when he later realized both of his daughters were pregnant, since as the story is told there were no males around in those parts? \*\* …you switch to arguing that he shouldn’t have overindulged in alcohol. Which is, of course, ridiculous. After seeing his hometown destroyed and his wife killed, Lot overindulges in alcohol- and that one mistake stains his whole life so that he cannot be described as righteous? (Not to mention that the fact that Lot’s realization _after the fact_ that his daughters were pregnant in no way bears on the fact that he didn’t know what had happened at the time.) Has anyone seen Fuel, BTW? An atheist shouldn’t have to bat _all_ the slow balls in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/84 "2003-07-08T04:24:15Z")
The holiday weekend is over so that makes it more difficult to explain **Fuel’s** continued absence from this thread (has he posted anything at all besides the OP?). I didn’t get the impression that he was a troll. I thought I’d at least get some of the standard, tortured fundie answers to my own questions (Judas threw the money at the priests, then he hung himself, _then_ he blew up…that still leaves a couple of loose ends like who bought the potter’s field and when and also how did he fall “headlong” if he was dancing at the end of a rope but I’m sure there are answers to those questions too…not _good_ answers, maybe but answers). Maybe fuel is trying to find answers from literalist websites or consulting a pastor. It’s kind of a shame. We so rarely get an inerrant Biblical literalist who really wants to go toe to toe. Fuel showed a lot of bravado in his OP. I had high hopes. Oh well, maybe he’ll come back. **badchad** , you _did_ accuse **Polycarp** of Hypocrisy…(well actually you accused him of “hypocricy” [sic] 😉 ) I would say that’s pretty close to an ethical judgement. It’s a question of tone, and intentionally or not you _do_ come off as a trifle snide in some of your comments to Poly. I think you could make your point just as well if simply ask him to clarify what you perceive as inconsistencies rather than hollering "hypocrite!’ The more civil the tone of your discourse the more convincing your own points will be. The logical content of your arguments is relatively sound but you need to dial down the smugness a little bit. Not that I’m one to talk. ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/85 "2003-07-08T04:40:46Z")
Well, it was truly unfortunate that I wrote this thread assuming my parents’ internet connection was going to be functioning this holiday weekend as I was away from my place all weekend. Stupid Bellsouth DSL… I am definately too far behind now to keep up with these questions, especially with some work to be done in the next 3 days. All I can do is make a couple general observations about some of the posts I looked over: I don’t think anyone should assume that the Bible, taking into consideration the way it was formed, is completely inerrant, _from our point of view_ now in this day and time. Now, that is not to say that assuming this, this thread was started all for nothing. But we should all establish some sort of leniency for it’s age, many authors, origin of info, ect. Now hold on a minute! Keep in mind that for the Bible to be inerrant in the purest and most functional sense of the word, it’s the end result that matters the most: the message conveyed and received as intended by God. So, when I hear “inerrant”, this is what I think of, **and there is a fine line between inerrancy and logical errors**. Now wait a minute! I want to try and make this dictinction because I feel as if some are misusing the word “inerrant”. I am not even sure if we can reasonably prove “errancy” even if it did exist in the Bible. On top of that, I am not even sure that given a proven logical error, we could even prove errancy thereafter. But, the thread is about errors, and the presence or lack of errors still matters in the sense of “How much faith should I put in the actual **words** of the Bible and how much faith to put in the **essence** of the Bible?” That is my motivation behind such a thread. As with most christians you guys have conversed with here, I doubt my faith is on the line in this thread! **But being an objective guy, I need to know of errors in order to gain a proper view of the Bible.** With that said, there were some very notable propositions, amongst some frivilous ones. I encourage everyone to keep this going and I will try to catch up on some of these. But, don’t wait for little ol me. Thank you for your attention to this post, and carry on… ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/86 "2003-07-08T05:23:49Z")
Yea! **Fuel** is back! Thanks for explaining your reasons for asking. I hope that you have found some of the answers you were searching for. **badchad** , do you feel that in your responses to Polycarp you have demonstrated the fruits of the spirit as described by Paul? [love; joy; peace; patience; kindness; goodness;faithfulness; gentleness; self-control.) Does it matter to you whether you have or have not? Do you believe that in your responses to Polycarp you have demonstrated the meekness, mercy and peacefulness taught in the Beatitudes. Does it matter to you whether you have or have not? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/87 "2003-07-08T05:49:37Z")
**Zoe** , **badchad** is an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/88 "2003-07-08T06:43:53Z")
Diogenes the Cynic \*badchad, you did accuse Polycarp of Hypocrisy…(well actually you accused him of “hypocricy” [sic] ) I would say that’s pretty close to an ethical judgement.\* Could be, I do think he is one of the biggest hypocrites on this board, as he frequently pretends to hold beliefs he does not practice or even believe as I illustrated above, which is by Webster’s definition a hypocrite. One could call this a descriptive term or an ethical judgment but the fact remains that he talks A LOT about how he follows Jesus’ teachings but has objectively shown that he does so selectively. _The more civil the tone of your discourse the more convincing your own points will be. The logical content of your arguments is relatively sound but you need to dial down the smugness a little bit. Not that I’m one to talk._ You’re probably right, but I have noticed that smugness towards the fundies on this board is fairly universal, while the liberals often get more of a pass from the nonbelievers, which I think is due to the fact they often argue on the same sides with regards to science and morality. Personally, I think the smugness infidels hold for childish superstitious belief systems, if applied, should be done so consistently. And besides, what’s the fun of being an atheist if you still have to be nice all the time.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/89 "2003-07-08T06:48:18Z")
Zoe: _badchad, do you feel that in your responses to Polycarp you have demonstrated the fruits of the spirit as described by Paul? [love; joy; peace; patience; kindness; goodness;faithfulness; gentleness; self-control.) Does it matter to you whether you have or have not?_ I think I used self control, as aside from that, no and no. _Do you believe that in your responses to Polycarp you have demonstrated the meekness, mercy and peacefulness taught in the Beatitudes. Does it matter to you whether you have or have not?_ No and no. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/90 "2003-07-08T06:59:45Z")
Fuel: _So, when I hear “inerrant”, this is what I think of, and there is a fine line between inerrancy and logical errors._ You mean like the difference between the number of horses Solomon had and the problem of evil? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/91 "2003-07-08T11:13:24Z")
Thanks for the responses, **Diogenes and badchad**. I don’t think that any one group here has a monopoly on smugness. But I do find Fuel’s openness refreshing. Can someone actually select their beliefs or do they sort of grow from within while being nurtured from without. I might change my mind about certain beliefs over time, but it is not a conscious decision. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/92 "2003-07-08T14:00:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fuel \* > \*\*Keep in mind that for the Bible to be inerrant in the purest and most functional sense of the word, it’s the end result that matters the most: the message conveyed and received as intended by God. \*\* So if I understand you correctly you are not all that concerned with the kind of _errors of details_ that one would expect from a work spanning thousands of years and dozens of authors, but rather _errors of substance_. So for the purposes of this thread the number of animals brought aboard the ark is not important, but, say, the different personalities of God between the Old and New Testaments would be. > [@](#): > > \*\* I don’t think anyone should assume that the Bible, taking into consideration the way it was formed, is completely inerrant, _from our point of view_ now in this day and time.\*\* Again let me make sure I understand what you’re saying. Consider the Bible’s cavalier attitude toward slavery. Since the Bible is consistent in viewing slavery as an acceptable institution, there is no logical error there, even though today we see slavery as a serious moral wrong. So within the scope of the Bible _per se_ slavery is not a logical error even though when looked at from today’s perspective it would be an error. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/93 "2003-07-08T14:18:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bnorton \* > \*\*So if I understand you correctly you are not all that concerned with the kind of _errors of details_ that one would expect from a work spanning thousands of years and dozens of authors, but rather _errors of substance_. So for the purposes of this thread the number of animals brought aboard the ark is not important, but, say, the different personalities of God between the Old and New Testaments would be. No, the opposite. I am concerned with any and all errors, logical and otherwise. Knowing about these errors will help me decide whether to hang on to every word in the Bible (like many believers do) or to take the words themselves with a grain of salt and focus more on the big picture. I’ll address the animal issue later. Again let me make sure I understand what you’re saying. Consider the Bible’s cavalier attitude toward slavery. Since the Bible is consistent in viewing slavery as an acceptable institution, there is no logical error there, even though today we see slavery as a serious moral wrong. So within the scope of the Bible _per se_ slavery is not a logical error even though when looked at from today’s perspective it would be an error. Is that right? \*\* [/QUOTE] Exactly. I believe the Bible teaches that there are some core absolute truths in morality (murder, rape, ect.) but slavery being wrong is not one of them. Juts to clarify, by logical error, I don’t necessarily mean the way the Bible uses logic, I mean an error in accounting facts or contradictions of fact. Finding an error _in_ logic would be sort of a moot point, because in the Bible it is taught that God supposedly does not limit himself to our logic in his dealings with us. ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/94 "2003-07-08T14:19:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bnorton \* > \*\*So if I understand you correctly you are not all that concerned with the kind of _errors of details_ that one would expect from a work spanning thousands of years and dozens of authors, but rather _errors of substance_. So for the purposes of this thread the number of animals brought aboard the ark is not important, but, say, the different personalities of God between the Old and New Testaments would be. No, the opposite. I am concerned with any and all errors, logical and otherwise. Knowing about these errors will help me decide whether to hang on to every word in the Bible (like many believers do) or to take the words themselves with a grain of salt and focus more on the big picture. I’ll address the animal issue later. > [@](#): > > Again let me make sure I understand what you’re saying. Consider the Bible’s cavalier attitude toward slavery. Since the Bible is consistent in viewing slavery as an acceptable institution, there is no logical error there, even though today we see slavery as a serious moral wrong. So within the scope of the Bible _per se_ slavery is not a logical error even though when looked at from today’s perspective it would be an error. Is that right? \*\* Exactly. I believe the Bible teaches that there are some core absolute truths in morality (murder, rape, ect.) but slavery being wrong is not one of them. Juts to clarify, by logical error, I don’t necessarily mean the way the Bible uses logic, I mean an error in accounting facts or contradictions of fact. Finding an error _in_ logic would be sort of a moot point, because in the Bible it is taught that God supposedly does not limit himself to our logic in his dealings with us. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/95 "2003-07-08T16:16:05Z")
**Fuel** , with all due respect, it seems like you’re moving the goal posts. Please define clearly what you would consider to be an “error.” It’s not really fair to ask for a logical contradiction and then say that “God does not use logic.” Do you want a flat contradiction of fact. Look no further than page one. If you want to say that the creation story is allegorical, how about the flood? There has never been a worldwide flood. That’s a fact. The Bible is wrong. Much of the archaeological evidence contradicts Biblical claims about historical events. Jericho was a ruin long before Joshua ever came to it. There is no sign in the archaeology that Israel ever existed as the grand, unified kingdom as described in Hebrew scripture. The gospels are full of contradictions and factual errors. Matthew and Luke have different geneologies for Jesus but even if the genologies were in accord they would still create a logical problem. They are both designed to trace the lineology of Jesus back to David through Joseph…but Joseph wasn’t Jesus’ father if the Virgin Birth is to be believed…so Joseph’s geneology is irrelevant and does not prove that Jesus is from the line of David. Luke gives us a historical impossibility. He claims that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great and was also born during the Census of Quirinius. The problem is that Quirinius’ census (which was not “of the world,” btw, but only a few local provinces, and which did _not_ incidentally include Galilee) took place in the year 6 CE. Herod died in 4 BCE. The events are ten years apart. If Jesus was born during the reign of Herod he could not have been born during the census. If he was born during the census he could not have been born during the reign of Herod. Does this count as an “error?” If not, what does? Thank you for playing along, btw. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/96 "2003-07-08T16:23:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*Genesis Chapter 4 Verse 15 thru 26 > > If Adam had 2 sons (Cain and Abel) who did Cain marry when he _went from the presense of the Lord_ Who did thier sons marry? > > This is probably one of the first logical errors of the bible. \*\* And one of the easiest to answer. Genesis 5 indicates that Adam had other sons and daughters as well. Likewise, there is no date on the Cain/Abel story. Obviously it must have occured at some point after other children were born but before Seth was born. And lest you give me the answer that the Cain/Abel story is written before Genesis 5, I will answer you that the Bible is not written in strict chronilogical order. Many times a subject will be brought up and then finished until it’s conclusion even though other events that are written later happened first. A good example of this is in Esau’s geneaology. Esau’s geneaology and the kings that ruled in Edom are the topic of Genesis 36. The sale of Joseph is the topic of Genesis 37. The first part of 36 deals with Esau’s children and his clans, culminating with a list of kings who ruled in Edom. In no way was this meant to indicate that all those children were born and all those kings ruled and died before the sale of Joseph occured. Rather, the Bible took up the topic of Esau (the previous chapters having dealt with his reunion with Jacob) and then concluded the matter of Esau before going on to the topic of Jacob and his family. Likewise, the Bible brought up the topic of Cain and Abel and then finished it to it’s logical conclusion before going on to other topics relating to Adam and his other children. That does not mean, however, that other daughters could not have been born in the interim, one (or more) of whom Cain married. Zev Steinhardt Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/97 "2003-07-08T16:34:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\* > “In Kings I said he was eighteen when he became king. In Chronicles I said he was eight. But I never said I meant the same thing by ‘became king’ in both verses, did I? A-HAHAHAHAHAHA!” > > \*\* True enough. But in **RedNaxela** ’s defense, I will submit to you that Orthodox Jews (of whom **RedNaxela** is one) aren’t Biblical literalists. We acknowledge that a simple reading of the Bible does contain contradictions and can give the wrong impressions. We also have an oral tradition (as codified in the Talmud) to reconcile these contradictions. So, yes, it is true that in one place it says that Joachin was eight when he became king and in another place it says that he was eighteen. On the surface, granted, it is a contradiciton. The two facts are mutually exclusive. But we don’t rely solely on a simple reading of the text. We are not absolute biblical literalists. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/98 "2003-07-08T16:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\ ***Fuel** , with all due respect, it seems like you’re moving the goal posts. Please define clearly what you would consider to be an “error.” It’s not really fair to ask for a logical contradiction and then say that “God does not use logic.” You missed the point of my last post. I agree that my calling it a “logical error” is misleading in the OP. Read my last post again and you will realize that there is a difference between an error in use of logic and an error in fact. I don’t think it feasible to question the logic of a book who claims to be illogical, does it? But, errors in fact are just that, errors. These are what I am talking about. > [@](#): > > Do you want a flat contradiction of fact. Look no further than page one. If you want to say that the creation story is allegorical, how about the flood? There has never been a worldwide flood. That’s a fact. The Bible is wrong. You are saying that a miracle is impossible. That is an assumption, albeit a reasonable one, but still an assumption. There is _not_ a _complete_ lack of evidence for the flood. Look at the seashell artifacts on the tops of mountains in that area. Your second sentence there suggests that you are being frivilous and closed minded, just FYI. > [@](#): > > Much of the archaeological evidence contradicts Biblical claims about historical events. Jericho was a ruin long before Joshua ever came to it. There is no sign in the archaeology that Israel ever existed as the grand, unified kingdom as described in Hebrew scripture. You know, now is a good time to provide cites to these claims. These are the types of errors I want to know about and am prepared to acknowledge, given enough proof. (Actually, how do you quantify “grand, unified kingdom” enough to be able to prove it wrong or right?) > [@](#): > > The gospels are full of contradictions and factual errors. Matthew and Luke have different geneologies for Jesus but even if the genologies were in accord they would still create a logical problem. They are both designed to trace the lineology of Jesus back to David through Joseph…but Joseph wasn’t Jesus’ father if the Virgin Birth is to be believed…so Joseph’s geneology is irrelevant and does not prove that Jesus is from the line of David. Joseph was essentially Jesus’ father… he rose Jesus as his son and was married to his mother. That’s fair enough for me, but apparently not good enough for some other people. See that how you will, but it’s not an error in fact but in judgement. > [@](#): > > Luke gives us a historical impossibility. He claims that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great and was also born during the Census of Quirinius. The problem is that Quirinius’ census (which was not “of the world,” btw, but only a few local provinces, and which did _not_ incidentally include Galilee) took place in the year 6 CE. Herod died in 4 BCE. The events are ten years apart. If Jesus was born during the reign of Herod he could not have been born during the census. If he was born during the census he could not have been born during the reign of Herod. Does this count as an “error?” If not, what does? > > Thank you for playing along, btw. \*\* I only see in 2:1-2 that Luke spoke of a tax by Ceasar Augustus and a reigning of Cyrenius. No mention I can see of Quirinius. (It would help if you could provide the verses). Also, I remember there being a lot of different Herods in this time. Maybe they are being confused with one another? I’ll need a cite on these things too. How sure are you about your sources of this info? Maybe those records are wrong? Just asking, not doubting. ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/99 "2003-07-08T17:03:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*True enough. But in **RedNaxela** ’s defense, I will submit to you that Orthodox Jews (of whom **RedNaxela** is one) aren’t Biblical literalists. We acknowledge that a simple reading of the Bible does contain contradictions and can give the wrong impressions. We also have an oral tradition (as codified in the Talmud) to reconcile these contradictions. So, yes, it is true that in one place it says that Joachin was eight when he became king and in another place it says that he was eighteen. On the surface, granted, it is a contradiciton. The two facts are mutually exclusive. But we don’t rely solely on a simple reading of the text. We are not absolute biblical literalists. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* A better reply to his argument is this: The difference in age is not an error in fact. It is an error in translation or weathering of the handwriting. The two words are almost the same, except eighteen has an extra little word tacked onto it. This is a setup for a translational error, not an error of origin. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145/100 "2003-07-08T17:15:52Z")
Everybody knows the story of David and Goliath – the shepherd boy who strikes down the giant warrior with his slingshot. Right? Check this out: > [@](#): > > 12 Now David was the son of an Ephrathite of Bethlehem in Judah, named Jesse, who had eight sons. 13 The three eldest sons of Jesse had followed Saul to the battle. 14 David was the youngest; the three eldest followed Saul, 15 but David went back and forth from Saul to feed his father’s sheep at Bethlehem. 16 For forty days the Philistine came forward and took his stand, morning and evening. 17 Jesse said to his son David, “Take for your brothers an ephah of this parched grain and these ten loaves, and carry them quickly to the camp to your brothers; 18 also take these ten cheeses to the commander of their thousand. See how your brothers fare, and bring some token from them.” 19 Now Saul, and they, and all the men of Israel, were in the valley of Elah, fighting with the Philistines. 20 David rose early in the morning, left the sheep with a keeper, took the provisions, and went as Jesse had commanded him. He came to the encampment as the army was going forth to the battle line, shouting the war cry. 21 Israel and the Philistines drew up for battle, army against army. 22 David left the things in charge of the keeper of the baggage, ran to the ranks, and went and greeted his brothers. 23 As he talked with them, the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, came up out of the ranks of the Philistines, and spoke the same words as before. And David heard him. 24 All the Israelites, when they saw the man, fled from him and were very much afraid. 26 David said to the men who stood by him, “What shall be done for the man who kills this Philistine, and takes away the reproach from Israel? For who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the Living God?” > 31 When the words that David spoke were heard, they repeated them before Saul; and he sent for him. 32 David said to Saul, “Let no one’s heart fail because of him; your servant will go and fight with this Philistine.” 33 Saul said to David, “You are not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him; for you are just a boy, and he has been a warrior from his youth.” > > 40 Then [David] took his staff in his hand, and chose five smooth stones from the wadi, and put them in his shepherd’s bag, in the pouch; his sling was in his hand, and he drew near to the Philistine. 41 The Philistine came on and drew near to David, with his shield-bearer in front of him. 42 When the Philistine looked and saw David, he disdained him, for he was only a youth, ruddy and handsome in appearance. 43 The Philistine said to David, “Am I a dog, that you come to me with sticks?” And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. 44 The Philistine said to David, “Come to me, and I will give your flesh to the birds of the air and to the wild animals of the field.” 45 But David said to the Philistine, “You come to me with sword and spear and javelin; but I come to you in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. 46 This very day the Lord will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you down and cut off your head; and I will give the dead bodies of the Philistine army this very day to the birds of the air and to the wild animals of the earth, so that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel, 47 and that all this assembly may know that the Lord does not save by sword and spear; for the battle is the Lord’s and he will give you into our hand.” > > 48 When the Philistine drew nearer to meet David, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet the Philistine. 49 David put his hand in his bag, took out a stone, slung it, and struck the Philistine on his forehead; the stone sank into his forehead, and he fell face down on the ground. 50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, striking down the Philistine and killing him; there was no sword in David’s hand. 51 Then David ran and stood over the Philistine; he grasped his sword, drew it out of its sheath, and killed him; then he cut off his head with it. There’s the classic story, extracted from I Samuel 17. But there are two other references to the death of Goliath (or at least to a giant Philistine). > [@](#): > > Then there was another battle with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam. (II Samuel 21:19) Apparently discussing the same battle: > [@](#): > > 1Ch 20:5 - Show Context > Again there was war with the Philistines; and Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam. (I Chronicles 20:5) And interestingly, the words translated “Lahmi the brother of” in the last passage are “bet’ Lahmi” – “Lahmi of the house of” – and the similarities to “Bethlehem” are evident. Who was Elhanan ben Jair? (Or was his father Jaare-oregim?) Who did he kill? How come it says David ben Jesse killed Goliath in one place, Elhanan in another, and that Elhanan killed Goliath’s brother rather than Goliath in a third place? And, apparently, both David and Elhanan are from Bethlehem (not a large town, so it says)? Do we have several distinct legends shuffled and mixed here? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-errors-in-the-bible-show-me/186145.md?page=6)