# logical flaw in Impeachment Articles **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 30, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614 "2019-12-30T19:42:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/1 "2019-12-30T19:42:40Z")
I was shocked to see this sentence in the impeachment articles: > [@](#): > > a discredited theory promoted by Russia alleging that Ukraine - rather than Russia - interfered in the 2016 United States Presidential election. It could be (and I think is) the case that BOTH Ukraine AND Russia interfered. By saying “rather than Russia”, they assume it has to be only one of the two, an elementary mistake which I think would get you a bad score on a law school exam. What the heck? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/2 "2019-12-30T19:46:10Z")
Well, there is a ton of evidence that Russia interfered in out elections, plus intelligence agency unanimity on that point. There is zero evidence (that I know of, cite it if you got it) that Ukraine did it. And the Trumpers have sought to use this to deflect blame away from Russia. But thanks for your efforts, Sherlock. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/3 "2019-12-30T19:50:02Z")
But that was the crap that Russia was pushing-That it was Ukraine and not Russia that was interfering in our election process. You can imagine anything your heart desires, but the actual scheme that is being talked about here involves Russia telling tall tales to divert attention from their own shenanigans. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/4 "2019-12-30T19:52:12Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well, there is a ton of evidence that Russia interfered in out elections, plus intelligence agency unanimity on that point. There is zero evidence (that I know of, cite it if you got it) that Ukraine did it. And the Trumpers have sought to use this to deflect blame away from Russia. > > But thanks for your efforts, Sherlock. From: [https://ukranews.com/en/news/601700-court-finds-unlawful-actions-of-nacb-director-sytnyk-and-mp-leschenko-on-spreading-information](https://ukranews.com/en/news/601700-court-finds-unlawful-actions-of-nacb-director-sytnyk-and-mp-leschenko-on-spreading-information) > [@](#): > > The court has found that the release of the information caused interference in the election processes in the United States in 2016 and did harm to the national interests of Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/5 "2019-12-30T19:56:07Z")
Let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! It’s so cute that you think your argument has merit! Awwwwww! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/6 "2019-12-30T19:58:19Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > From: > > [https://ukranews.com/en/news/601700-court-finds-unlawful-actions-of-nacb-director-sytnyk-and-mp-leschenko-on-spreading-information](https://ukranews.com/en/news/601700-court-finds-unlawful-actions-of-nacb-director-sytnyk-and-mp-leschenko-on-spreading-information) _Ukrainian News_ is produced by Ukrainian News Agency…which is owned and controlled by Russian-based company GDF Media Ltd. It seems as if your story is nothing without cites…and even worse with the cites you rely on. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/7 "2019-12-30T19:59:29Z")
No evidence Ukraine interfered. Substantial evidence that Russia interfered and started a phony story about Ukraine interfering. The logical flaw is in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/8 "2019-12-30T20:03:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Ukrainian News_ is produced by Ukrainian News Agency…which is owned and controlled by Russian-based company GDF Media Ltd. > > It seems as if your story is nothing without cites…and even worse with the cites you rely on. Well the court either made the finding or it didn’t. Can anyone find a decisive source? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/9 "2019-12-30T20:07:32Z")
LMAO, it was also reported in the New York Times: > **[Ukraine Court Rules Manafort Disclosure Caused ‘Meddling’ in U.S. Election...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html)** > > A prosecutor and a lawmaker broke the law by revealing details about possibly illegal payments earmarked for Paul Manafort, which “resulted in meddling” in the 2016 election, a court in Kiev said. Looks like you are stuck with Russia AND Ukraine interfering. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/10 "2019-12-30T20:08:10Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Well the court either made the finding or it didn’t. Can anyone find a decisive source? Have you tried sites that _weren’t_ prime sources of Russian propaganda? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/11 "2019-12-30T20:11:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you tried sites that _weren’t_ prime sources of Russian propaganda? How’s the New York Times? > **[Ukraine Court Rules Manafort Disclosure Caused ‘Meddling’ in U.S. Election...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html)** > > A prosecutor and a lawmaker broke the law by revealing details about possibly illegal payments earmarked for Paul Manafort, which “resulted in meddling” in the 2016 election, a court in Kiev said. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/12 "2019-12-30T20:13:06Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > LMAO, it was also reported in the New York Times: > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html) > Looks like you are stuck with Russia AND Ukraine interfering. > [@](#): > > The court’s ruling that what the prosecutors did was illegal comes as the Ukrainian government, which is deeply reliant on the United States for financial and military aid, has sought to distance itself from matters related to the special counsel’s investigation of Russia’s interference in the 2016 presidential race. What you are trying here has already been put forth, easily refuted and flushed with all the other Russian propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/13 "2019-12-30T20:13:41Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > How’s the New York Times? > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html) Did you read it? I am thinking that you are thinking it says something that it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/14 "2019-12-30T20:18:47Z")
Why the anger at the OP? He’s got a point, even if it’s not a logical error. It’s just less than ideal writing. “a discredited theory promoted by Russia alleging that Ukraine - rather than Russia - interfered in the 2016 United States Presidential election.” The whole thing is about Russia’s allegation, not about who interfered in the 2016 election. It is true that both countries could have, and indeed may have for all I know, interfered in the election. But Russia only alleged that the Ukraine did, and that allegation was specifically to cover their own interference, rather than all parties interfering on a worldwide scale. I would have said “a discredited theory promoted by Russia alleging that it was Ukraine, rather than Russia itself, that interfered in the 2016 United States Presidential election.” But nobody asked me. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/15 "2019-12-30T20:20:59Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > Did you read it? I am thinking that you are thinking it says something that it doesn’t. I did, and I think it shows Ukranian interference was declared by a Ukranian court. Unless the NYT has been compromised by the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/16 "2019-12-30T20:23:57Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > From: > > [https://ukranews.com/en/news/601700-court-finds-unlawful-actions-of-nacb-director-sytnyk-and-mp-leschenko-on-spreading-information](https://ukranews.com/en/news/601700-court-finds-unlawful-actions-of-nacb-director-sytnyk-and-mp-leschenko-on-spreading-information) Surprisingly, this news source is Russian owned. Amazing how Russian owned Ukrainian news sources keep working their way into the discussion these days. But that said, it is true that “the black ledger” became a thing and got Paul Manafort removed from the Trump campaign. And so we could certainly say that that affected the election. For that to be “inference”, however, it has to have been intentional. If a Presidential candidate, during an election year, traveled to England and shot someone in the streets of London, we wouldn’t consider it “interference” for them to announce that the murder had taken place nor for them to issue a warrant for that person. Yes, it will affect the American election. But no, it’s just a matter of what the candidate did and when they did it that caused this to happen at that time. It would be unreasonable to expect the British to hide this information and even worse if they did so purposely with the intention of having it ready as blackmail material, for example. Getting it out in the open may be the most friendly thing they could do. Many people on this site have given absolutist arguments against foreign involvement in elections. That is short-sighted. It’s throwing the baby out with the bath water. There are times, places, and means of affecting the elections of another nation that are appropriate and/or necessary. But there are also times and means that are inappropriate and corrupt. Unfortunately, I don’t have time to explain that further nor find a previous place where I did so. So I’ll just say that a context free interpretation of events is stupid and I would suspect the honesty of my brain if it was engaging in that sort of behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/17 "2019-12-30T20:24:34Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > I did, and I think it shows Ukranian interference was declared by a Ukranian court. Unless the NYT has been compromised by the Russians. It says a bit more than that. Read the whole article(not just the part you want to hear), then get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/18 "2019-12-30T20:32:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It says a bit more than that. Read the whole article(not just the part you want to hear), then get back to us. I did. Face it: Ukranian interference is by no means “discredited”. That sentence in the Impeachment Articles set up a false “exclusive or”. A Ukranian court declared Ukranian interference. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/19 "2019-12-30T20:33:19Z")
What sense is there in _leading_ with an easily checked Russian propaganda site? it just casts a large shadow over your whole thread. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/20 "2019-12-30T20:34:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It says a bit more than that. Read the whole article(not just the part you want to hear), then get back to us. That part about Manafort is what I think **Czar** means. Not picking on you personally, **Peebles**. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614.md?page=2)