# logical flaw in Impeachment Articles **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 30, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614 "2019-12-30T19:42:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/21 "2019-12-30T20:39:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What sense is there in _leading_ with an easily checked Russian propaganda site? it just casts a large shadow over your whole thread. Forget my first source. I showed you the New York Times reported it too. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/22 "2019-12-30T20:40:27Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > That part about Manafort is what I think **Czar** means. > > Not picking on you personally, **Peebles**. Manafort was knocked off the Trump campaign because of this. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/23 "2019-12-30T20:40:38Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > It could be (and I think is) the case that BOTH Ukraine AND Russia interfered. Then you cannot credit the Russian propaganda that says “it wasn’t us, it was Ukraine”. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/24 "2019-12-30T20:41:15Z")
> [@Jim Peebles](#): > > It could be (and I think is) the case that BOTH Ukraine AND Russia interfered. We’re in a high stakes poker game and I reveal to you that a certain individual at the table is stacking the deck when he deals the cards. Now, have I interfered in the game to the extent that the cheater has, or have I helped you? It’s true that both those events had an impact on the game, but are they the same? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/25 "2019-12-30T20:42:50Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > A Ukranian court declared Ukranian interference. I have also previously noted that a person under duress is not a reliable witness. If someone tells you that Mr. Rogers had a habit of kicking puppies, and that person says this at the same time as having a set of wires coming out of his trouser legs and running to the offices of Universal Studios and he seems very fidgety and sweaty, I’d take his testimony with a grain of salt. At the moment, in case you have missed the news, Ukraine is on the verge of being conquered by a foreign aggressor who is larger and more powerful than they. One of the few things helping to keep things from completely going to hell is staying in the good graces of Senor Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/26 "2019-12-30T20:44:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > We’re in a high stakes poker game and I reveal to you that a certain individual at the table is stacking the deck when he deals the cards. Now, have I interfered in the game to the extent that the cheater has, or have I helped you? It’s true that both those events had an impact on the game, but are they the same? How about a person has $100 dollars, Russia robs them of $90, and Ukraine robs them of $10. Did they both commit robbery? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/27 "2019-12-30T20:47:17Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > How about a person has $100 dollars, Russia robs them of $90, and Ukraine robs them of $10. Did they both commit robbery? A mouse and an elephant are loose in your china shop. Which one do you worry about first? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/28 "2019-12-30T20:48:03Z")
If a Ukraine court finds Ukranian interference, it is by no means a “discredited theory”. Further investigation would be needed to determine the credibility of the theory. Which is exactly what Trump’s defence says he was trying to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/29 "2019-12-30T20:49:03Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > I was shocked to see this sentence in the impeachment articles: > > It could be (and I think is) the case that BOTH Ukraine AND Russia interfered. By saying “rather than Russia”, they assume it has to be only one of the two, an elementary mistake which I think would get you a bad score on a law school exam. What the heck? What you think doesn’t matter. You aren’t the one who was impeached. For example, if I say that Donald Trump said he grabbed women by the pussy, it is not a defense of Trump to say that you, **Jim Peebles** , never grabbed anyone by the pussy. Likewise, the articles assert that Trump has promoted the idea that Ukraine AND NOT Russia was behind the election interference. Unless you are challenging that Trump has not: 1. Asserted that Ukraine interferes in the election, and 2. asserted that Russia did not interfere in the election; than your own theory of what countries interfered is wholly irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/30 "2019-12-30T20:51:16Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > If a Ukraine court finds Ukranian interference, it is by no means a “discredited theory”. Further investigation would be needed to determine the credibility of the theory. Which is exactly what Trump’s defence says he was trying to do. Since you have no interest in why it happened, despite having it explained to you more than once, I have no more interest in trying to discuss this with you. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/31 "2019-12-30T20:57:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What you think doesn’t matter. You aren’t the one who was impeached. > > For example, if I say that Donald Trump said he grabbed women by the pussy, it is not a defense of Trump to say that you, **Jim Peebles** , never grabbed anyone by the pussy. > > Likewise, the articles assert that Trump has promoted the idea that Ukraine AND NOT Russia was behind the election interference. Unless you are challenging that Trump has not: 1. Asserted that Ukraine interferes in the election, and 2. asserted that Russia did not interfere in the election; than your own theory of what countries interfered is wholly irrelevant. Where did Trump argue “NOT Russia”? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/32 "2019-12-30T21:00:29Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > How about a person has $100 dollars, Russia robs them of $90, and Ukraine robs them of $10. Did they both commit robbery? Wrong analogy. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/33 "2019-12-30T21:05:36Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Where did Trump argue “NOT Russia”? I don’t think you’re going to get an answer to that question…It doesn’t fit the “narrative”. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/34 "2019-12-30T21:05:42Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Where did Trump argue “NOT Russia”? Fuckin’ hell. :smack: [Trump denied Russian interference in election.](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/05/trump-admits-russia-helped-him-win-denies-it-20-minutes-later) > [@](#): > > Trump himself has alternated between accepting Russian interference as reality and flat-out denying it, as he did during his infamous summit with Putin in 2018. “He just said it’s not Russia,” Trump told reporters at the time. “I will say this: I don’t see any reason why it would be.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/35 "2019-12-30T21:05:45Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Where did Trump argue “NOT Russia”? You’re kidding, right? You don’t know about the “Putin told me so”? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/36 "2019-12-30T21:09:12Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Where did Trump argue “NOT Russia”? If you don’t know the first thing about this subject, why are you debating it? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/37 "2019-12-30T21:15:53Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > I was shocked to see this sentence in the impeachment articles: > > It could be (and I think is) the case that BOTH Ukraine AND Russia interfered. By saying “rather than Russia”, they assume it has to be only one of the two, an elementary mistake which I think would get you a bad score on a law school exam. What the heck? I disagree. If you allege that only one entity interfered with an election, that is not a logical flaw. It may perhaps be a factual flaw that Trump could use in his defense but there is nothing illogical about it. If Bill says that he didn’t steal from you because he has proof that Dave did it, then you could point out that it was possible that perhaps both Bill and Dave stole from you, but Bill could then come back with proof that it was only one entity. Nothing illogical about it. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/38 "2019-12-30T21:23:55Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > LMAO, it was also reported in the New York Times: > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html) > Looks like you are stuck with Russia AND Ukraine interfering. This isn’t the debunked crowdstrike conspiracy theory that the Trump administration wanted to get Zelenski to report. This is reminiscent of Bush supporters pointing to a few deteriorated shells as proof that Sadam Hussein did indeed have weapons of mass destruction and so Bush was right. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/39 "2019-12-30T21:26:13Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Where did Trump argue “NOT Russia”? The whole Ukrainian/DNC server conspiracy theory that he has harped on, referred to in the phone call, and continues to harp on is an attempt to refute that Russia hacked the DNC server. It then used the results to interfere in the 2016 election. That conspiracy theory, including specifics that Trump has repeatedly mentioned, including in the phone call, has been thoroughly debunked, and, apparently it is known (according to Fiona Hill, among others) to have been started by the Russians. That is the discredited theory. That Ukraine, rather than Russia, interfered in the 2016 election in that particular way. I don’t know if it is a poorly worded sentence in the articles, or if the context makes it clear, since you haven’t provided context, or even the complete sentence. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/40 "2019-12-30T21:30:01Z")
Why, oh why, would Ukraine interfere with the 2016 election? They had no reason to doubt that either administration would be hostile toward it. There is no logic to it. As an aside, I believe that Putin is still playing the Great Game, with the U.S. in the role of Great Britain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614.md?page=3)