# logical flaw in Impeachment Articles **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 30, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614 "2019-12-30T19:42:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/61 "2019-12-31T02:00:23Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > No, I’m sorry, you don’t know that the Russians provided those emails to WikiLeaks. Wikileaks denied it and there is no evidence to support it. Ok, comrade. … Wait, so the working theory is that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 election by noting that Trump’s campaign manager was a crook? THIS is what the GOP claims is foreign interference? > [@That NY Times link](#): > > In 2016, while Mr. Manafort was chairman of the Trump campaign, anti-corruption prosecutors in Ukraine disclosed that a pro-Russian political party had earmarked payments for Mr. Manafort from an illegal slush fund. Mr. Manafort resigned from the campaign a week later. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/62 "2019-12-31T02:33:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Why would he stop when he has so many useful helpers at his disposal? Not saying that he would. Just observing how, after nearly two centuries and multiple regime changes, Russia is still playing it and expanding it from Central.Asia. The only major change was to add the U.S. as a player. As I recall, but cannot find the cites without investing more effort than I care to, MacNamara and JFK’s other Whiz Kids felt it was up to them to pick up the game from the faltering British. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/63 "2019-12-31T02:53:58Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > A scary sounding term like “interfering in the election” implies far more than a few stupid memes. It has been pointed out to you numerous times in multiple threads that the Russian effort in 2016 went far beyond a few stupid memes. For example, there is evidence that they tried to electronically access voting infrastructure in every single county in Florida. That is, in fact, far more than a few stupid memes. Did you forget? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/64 "2019-12-31T03:04:31Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > It has been pointed out to you numerous times in multiple threads that the Russian effort in 2016 went far beyond a few stupid memes. For example, there is evidence that they tried to electronically access voting infrastructure in every single county in Florida. That is, in fact, far more than a few stupid memes. > > Did you forget? There was also money laundering through the NRA > **[NRA Was 'Foreign Asset' To Russia Ahead of 2016, New Senate Report Reveals](https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/764879242/nra-was-foreign-asset-to-russia-ahead-of-2016-new-senate-report-reveals)** > > Emails and interviews detail the extent to which the National Rifle Association helped two of Moscow's agents ahead of the election, Senate Finance Committee Democrats say. > **[The N.R.A. Spent $30 Million to Elect Trump. Was It Russian Money?](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/06/the-nra-spent-dollar30-million-to-elect-trump-was-it-russian-money)** > > Congressional Democrats, the F.B.I., and Robert Mueller want to know why Putin-tied oligarchs took such an interest in American gun ownership. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/65 "2019-12-31T03:15:47Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > It has been pointed out to you numerous times in multiple threads that the Russian effort in 2016 went far beyond a few stupid memes. For example, there is evidence that they tried to electronically access voting infrastructure in every single county in Florida. That is, in fact, far more than a few stupid memes. > > Did you forget? Do you mean this? [Mueller Report: FBI Thinks Russia Got Into Florida County Network Ahead of 2016 Election](https://www.newsweek.com/mueller-fbi-russia-florida-elections-1400773) > [@](#): > > “We understand the FBI believes that this operation enabled the GRU to gain access to the network of at least one Florida county government,” the report said. “The Office did not independently verify that belief and, as explained above, did not undertake the investigative steps that would have been necessary to do so.” ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/66 "2019-12-31T03:16:59Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > There was also money laundering through the NRA There was also a ton of other things. Every few months UltraVires tries to minimize the Russian interference in the 2016 election as “mean things on Facebook” or similar. Then twenty or so posters present examples of Russian interference that go well beyond Facebook and demonstrate that Facebook was only a tiny slice of the massive undertaking that was Russian interference in the 2016 election. UltraVires will then fade out of the thread without acknowledging any of those posts only to pop up and do it all again six months down the road. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/67 "2019-12-31T03:17:17Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > There was also money laundering through the NRA > > [NRA Was 'Foreign Asset' To Russia Ahead of 2016, New Senate Report Finds : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/764879242/nra-was-foreign-asset-to-russia-ahead-of-2016-new-senate-report-reveals) > > [The N.R.A. Spent $30 Million to Elect Trump. Was It Russian Money? | Vanity Fair](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/06/the-nra-spent-dollar30-million-to-elect-trump-was-it-russian-money/amp) Oh Maria Butina, the “Natasha” of Rocky & Bullwinkle? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/68 "2019-12-31T03:18:29Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > There was also a ton of other things. Every few months UltraVires tries to minimize the Russian interference in the 2016 election as “mean things on Facebook” or similar. Then twenty or so posters present examples of Russian interference that go well beyond Facebook and demonstrate that Facebook was only a tiny slice of the massive undertaking that was Russian interference in the 2016 election. UltraVires will then fade out of the thread without acknowledging any of those posts only to pop up and do it all again six months down the road. I didn’t see any of this “massive” stuff outlined in the Mueller report and that was his exact mandate to investigate. Where’s the beef? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/69 "2019-12-31T03:35:02Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > I didn’t see any of this “massive” stuff outlined in the Mueller report and that was his exact mandate to investigate. Where’s the beef? The beef starts on page 50 of volume 1 of the Mueller report. Here’s the chunk about Florida… > [@](#): > > Similarly, in November 2016 , the GRU sent spearphishing emails to over 120 email accounts used by Florida county officials responsible for administering the 2016 U .S. election. 191 The spearphishing emails contained an attached Word document coded with malicious software (commonly referred to as a Trojan) that permitted the GRU to access the infected computer. 192 The FBI was separately responsible for this investigation. We understand the FBI believes that this operation enabled the GRU to gain access to the network of at least one Florida county government. This is just one example, but the point is this is clearly a crime, even if an American did it, and definitely has nothing to do with Facebook. This and many, many other aspects of the massive Russian operation have been pointed out to **UltraVires** before, but for some reason he insists that it was just, “Facebook memes.” It’s absurd. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/70 "2019-12-31T05:00:39Z")
Be plausible enough to chalk up some of those voting database incursions as poking around and trying to find out what they _could_ do, rather than actually setting out to do it. What concerns me more is the ability to target disinformation to vulnerable segments of the population. Reagan talking about welfare queens in Cadillacs? Outdated, obsolete. Today, its a FB ad about how Hillary kidnapped Bernie’s grandchildren and enslaved them on one of her pizza shop sex farms. Progress! ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/71 "2019-12-31T05:22:06Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > No, I’m sorry, you don’t know that the Russians provided those emails to WikiLeaks. Wikileaks denied it and there is no evidence to support it. Even the Mueller report hedges its bets, here’s a great article on this. > > [CrowdStrikeOut: Mueller’s Own Report Undercuts Its Core Russia-Meddling Claims](https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2019/07/05/crowdstrikeout_muellers_own_report_undercuts_its_core_russia-meddling_claims.html) Let’s say that I tell you that studies have been performed that show that 80% of rape accusations have been proven to have been true, 5% were pure slander, and the other 15% could not be established. Now, a particular man, Roger, has been accused of rape by ten different women. There is no indication that they know each other. Woman by woman, there’s up to a 20% chance that their testimony adds nothing. Mary could be lying, Joanne could be lying, Barbara could be lying, Mandi could be lying, and so on. But Roger is a rapist. At an 80% probability across 10 independent reports, the probability that Roger is innocent is 0.00001024%. That is science and math. Our 80% value was generated by an independent research effort that has no relationship to the case at hand. The calculation to reach 0.00001024% is simple math. It’s 20^10 / 100^10 because those are the areas of the hypercube for the “10 liars” option and the hypercube for all possible options. If even one woman is telling the truth, when the other nine are lying, Roger is still a rapist. In science, sleuthing, or anything else, proof is achieved through a preponderance of evidence. “Preponderance” does not mean “I have a video tape of the guy doing it”. It means, “I have a bunch of independent factoids that, alone, mean nothing. But, viewing them as a whole and running some odds, we have a certain thing even if some elements of evidence prove to have been wrong.” Feel free to go through that article and assign probabilities. What are the odds, for example, that someone else (see footnote 136 on page 41 of the Mueller report), other than Russia, _also_ hacked into the DNC, _also_ stopped their hacking operation on or around the same day that Russia stopped, _also_ would be motivated to use WikiLeaks as a front? Yeah, each of those items independently could happen. But the only person to write an article that tries to convince you to consider all those elements independently and exclusive of one another is someone whose job it is to generate political spin to mislead those who want to be mislead. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/72 "2019-12-31T05:45:07Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > It has been pointed out to you numerous times in multiple threads that the Russian effort in 2016 went far beyond a few stupid memes. For example, there is evidence that they tried to electronically access voting infrastructure in every single county in Florida. (emphasis added) > [@EasyPhil](#): > > Do you mean this? > > [Mueller Report: FBI Thinks Russia Got Into Florida County Network Ahead of 2016 Election](https://www.newsweek.com/mueller-fbi-russia-florida-elections-1400773) > > > [@](#): > > > > “We understand the FBI believes that this operation enabled the GRU to gain access to the network of at least one Florida county government,” the report said. “The Office did not independently verify that belief and, as explained above, did not undertake the investigative steps that would have been necessary to do so.” (emphasis added) Why would you ask such a foolish question? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/73 "2019-12-31T06:52:13Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Looks like you are stuck with Russia AND Ukraine interfering. Don’t forget Albania — its Fakebook entrepreneurs make it a strong candidate for a medal in the Small Country category. Of course, by far the hugest amount of 2016 election frauds and crimes were committed down there in the Yewnited States. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/74 "2019-12-31T12:10:04Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Let’s say that I tell you that studies have been performed that show that 80% of rape accusations have been proven to have been true, 5% were pure slander, and the other 15% could not be established. > > Now, a particular man, Roger, has been accused of rape by ten different women. There is no indication that they know each other. > > Woman by woman, there’s up to a 20% chance that their testimony adds nothing. Mary could be lying, Joanne could be lying, Barbara could be lying, Mandi could be lying, and so on. > > But Roger is a rapist. > > At an 80% probability across 10 independent reports, the probability that Roger is innocent is 0.00001024%. That is science and math. Our 80% value was generated by an independent research effort that has no relationship to the case at hand. The calculation to reach 0.00001024% is simple math. It’s 20^10 / 100^10 because those are the areas of the hypercube for the “10 liars” option and the hypercube for all possible options. If even one woman is telling the truth, when the other nine are lying, Roger is still a rapist. > > In science, sleuthing, or anything else, proof is achieved through a preponderance of evidence. “Preponderance” does not mean “I have a video tape of the guy doing it”. It means, “I have a bunch of independent factoids that, alone, mean nothing. But, viewing them as a whole and running some odds, we have a certain thing even if some elements of evidence prove to have been wrong.” > > Feel free to go through that article and assign probabilities. > > What are the odds, for example, that someone else (see footnote 136 on page 41 of the Mueller report), other than Russia, _also_ hacked into the DNC, _also_ stopped their hacking operation on or around the same day that Russia stopped, _also_ would be motivated to use WikiLeaks as a front? > > Yeah, each of those items independently could happen. But the only person to write an article that tries to convince you to consider all those elements independently and exclusive of one another is someone whose job it is to generate political spin to mislead those who want to be mislead. What are the odds that the DNC wasn’t hacked but the emails were obtained by WikiLeaks via a leak? Meaning someone inside the DNC provided the emails to WikiLeaks. Perhaps a Bernie supporter dissatisfied about how the DNC was operating with respect to the primary system. Small probability of that, right? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/75 "2019-12-31T12:38:57Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Of course, we don’t know what the President believes in his heart of hearts but he can be quoted as saying that he doesn’t believe that Russia interfered. Go ahead, quote him then. I don’t think such a quote can be found. There are some where he says he doesn’t believe Russia hacked the DNC servers, but that has not been considered proven by US Intelligence. The latest quote I can find on it says “high confidence”: [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/us/politics/spy-agency-consensus-grows-that-russia-hacked-dnc.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/us/politics/spy-agency-consensus-grows-that-russia-hacked-dnc.html) which falls short of “absolute certainty”. And that is just one type of interference. His statement therefore is not a denial of Russian interference of any kind. So there is a false “exclusive or” in the impeachment articles. Russia AND Ukraine interfered in the 2016 US election. Unless you are so xenophobic as to say that “a Ukranian court finding of Ukranian interference does not merit any further investigation”. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/76 "2019-12-31T13:14:56Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Go ahead, quote him then. It took me all of 30 seconds: [2017 Lie of the Year: Russian election interference is a ‘made-up story’](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/dec/12/2017-lie-year-russian-election-interference-made-s/) > [@](#): > > “This Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story. It’s an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should’ve won,” said President Donald Trump in an interview with NBC’s Lester Holt in May. > > On Twitter in September, Trump said, “The Russia hoax continues, now it’s ads on Facebook. What about the totally biased and dishonest Media coverage in favor of Crooked Hillary?” > > And during an overseas trip to Asia in November, Trump spoke of meeting with Putin: “Every time he sees me, he says, ‘I didn’t do that.’ And I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it.” In the same interview, Trump referred to the officials who led the intelligence agencies during the election as “political hacks.” ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/77 "2019-12-31T14:16:51Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > It took me all of 30 seconds: > > “This Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story. It’s an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should’ve won,” said President Donald Trump in an interview with NBC’s Lester Holt in May. > > On Twitter in September, Trump said, “The Russia hoax continues, now it’s ads on Facebook. What about the totally biased and dishonest Media coverage in favor of Crooked Hillary?” > > And during an overseas trip to Asia in November, Trump spoke of meeting with Putin: “Every time he sees me, he says, ‘I didn’t do that.’ And I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it.” In the same interview, Trump referred to the officials who led the intelligence agencies during the election as “political hacks.” The “Trump and Russia is a made up story” is saying he did not collude with Russia. He was not trying to say Russia made no attempts to interfere. The “ads on Facebook” were compared to “Media coverage in favor of Crooked Hillary”. He was not denying Russia bought ads on Facebook. The ads on Facebook were compared in significance to Media bias in favor of Hillary, like a butterfly flapping its wings (ads on Facebook) behind one runner (Trump) compared to a jet engine (Media bias) pushing the competing runner (Hillary). And he still won. And the third quote is about Putin denying the hack of the DNC servers, which the US Intelligence agencies are “highly confident” Russia did, but not absolutely certain. One way to help the US Intelligence agencies to remove their remaining doubts, and learn more things which might help the US, would be to ask the Ukranians to locate the server, which some believe is now in Ukraine, and which the DNC would not allow the FBI to look at directly, but instead used a private contractor. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/78 "2019-12-31T14:19:11Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Go ahead, quote him then. > > I don’t think such a quote can be found. There are some where he says he doesn’t believe Russia hacked the DNC servers, but that has not been considered proven by US Intelligence. The latest quote I can find on it says “high confidence”: > [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/us/politics/spy-agency-consensus-grows-that-russia-hacked-dnc.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/us/politics/spy-agency-consensus-grows-that-russia-hacked-dnc.html) which falls short of “absolute certainty”. And that is just one type of interference. His statement therefore is not a denial of Russian interference of any kind. > > So there is a false “exclusive or” in the impeachment articles. Russia AND Ukraine interfered in the 2016 US election. Unless you are so xenophobic as to say that “a Ukranian court finding of Ukranian interference does not merit any further investigation”. I know enough about Ukraine to know not to give the findings of their corrupt legal system anywhere near the kind of weight I would give the findings of a court that operates under the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/79 "2019-12-31T14:35:31Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > And the third quote is about Putin denying the hack of the DNC servers [This is patently untrue](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-press-gaggle-aboard-air-force-one-en-route-hanoi-vietnam/), and you should apologize for saying something so untrue without researching first. > [@Remarks from Trump on AF1 to reporters](#): > > Q How did you bring up the issue of election meddling? Did you ask him a question? > > PRESIDENT TRUMP: He just — every time he sees me, he says, “I didn’t do that.” And I believe — I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it. But he says, “I didn’t do that.” I think he’s very insulted by it, if you want to know the truth. The conversation had gone on extensively before that, but it was always in the context of election meddling. Here’s some more of it: > [@](#): > > Q Did Russia’s attempts to meddle in U.S. elections come up in the conversation? > > PRESIDENT TRUMP: He said he didn’t meddle. He said he didn’t meddle. I asked him again. You can only ask so many times. But I just asked him again, and he said he absolutely did not meddle in our election. He did not do what they’re saying he did. And he said — > > Q Do you believe him? > > PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, look, I can’t stand there and argue with him. I’d rather have him get out of Syria, to be honest with you. I’d rather have him — you know, work with him on the Ukraine than standing and arguing about whether or not — because that whole thing was set up by the Democrats. > > I mean, they ought to look at Podesta. They ought to look at all of the things that they’ve done with the phony dossier. Those are the big events. Those are the big events. > > But Putin said he did not do what they said he did. And, you know, there are those that say, if he did do it, he wouldn’t have gotten caught, all right? Which is a very interesting statement. But we have a — you know, we have a good feeling toward getting things done. You’re just plain wrong here, and it’s a test of your posting habits whether you can, confronted with the evidence from [whitehouse.gov](http://whitehouse.gov), admit error and change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614/80 "2019-12-31T14:36:19Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I know enough about Ukraine to know not to give the findings of their corrupt legal system anywhere near the kind of weight I would give the findings of a court that operates under the rule of law. I would consider the President to be remiss if he failed to ask Ukraine to investigate Ukranian interference in the 2016 election after a Ukranian court declared there was, despite doubts some have about the Ukranian court system. The Democrats have done the opposite, and to the extreme: they say it is an impeachable offense to request such investigations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/logical-flaw-in-impeachment-articles/845614.md?page=5)