# Loki TV series discussion (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** disney-hulu\ **Created:** [January 27, 2021, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625 "2021-01-27T18:06:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/81 "2021-06-11T18:13:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The universes in which you did not choose Fruity Pebbles, all of them and they contain, all the sentient beings, everything, are all erased, I limited it to two for simplicity, but sure, you had many options for your breakfast choice this morning, only the universe in which you made the right choice did you survive. > [@DSeid](#): > > just as Thanos erased just half of all of just one universe. Thanos is child’s play. He only wiped out half the universe, once. The TVA routinely eliminates entire universes. I can’t help but feel that they are the real villains in this story. > [@DSeid](#): > > Only the predetermined sacred choices (major or trivial) are able to be made, by Time Keeper edicts, ruthlessly enforced by a bureaucratic operation. No universe in which an Avenger made a choice other than that determined to be sacred is allowed to continue. Even if it was Stark picking Frosted Flakes instead of Fruity Pebbles. It does make me wonder if it is a quantum multiverse type thing where trillions of choices are made ever femtosecond, with only one choice being allowed to continue, or if only powerful people or powerful objects can divert the timeline enough for the TVA to intervene. > [@DSeid](#): > > It is only within the TVA where decisions are not predetermined and enforced. Neither the workers of the TVA, or the Time Keepers themselves even, know what this Loki variant will choose to do, or “should” do as part of their chosen path, while within the TVA. There does seem to be continuity and causality to the timeline within the TVA. Möbius does say that time doesn’t work the same way as on the outside when asked how long he had been there, but he didn’t really explain how it works either. Are they not able to move to other points in the TVA timeline, or they just choose/are ordered not to? But, just as you and I do not know the future of our own timeline, while some hypothetical time agents would, the TVA may not know their own future, even though those above them may. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/82 "2021-06-11T20:18:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Thanos is child’s play. We agree I think and your comments are valid. Thinking about it more though I do come to this: the cruelty of Thanos was not so much upon those who were disappeared, but on those who were left behind, mourning. Still. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2021, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/83 "2021-06-12T04:56:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There does seem to be continuity and causality to the timeline within the TVA. Möbius does say that time doesn’t work the same way as on the outside when asked how long he had been there, but he didn’t really explain how it works either. Are they not able to move to other points in the TVA timeline, or they just choose/are ordered not to? My theory on that is that all of the TVA staff are hooked into one “meta-timeline” which has it’s own continuity. So, if a TVA person goes back to 1549 and spends a day, when he portals back to the TVA, a day has passed. If his coworker goes to 2049 and spends 8 hours there, he will portal back to the TVA 16 meta-hours earlier than his 1549 compatriot. Hunter guy says “6 attacks this week” meaning a TVA meta-week. That implies that the attacker is hooked into the TVA continuity. There’s an observation bias built into my theory. When the TVA looked at 1549, it saw nothing untoward _until_ an “observer” hooked into TVA time saw/caused the variation and subsequent attack. And I personally think Owen is killing it in this role. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/84 "2021-06-12T17:15:32Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > the cruelty of Thanos was not so much upon those who were disappeared, but on those who were left behind, mourning. While saying that he was doing it for their benefit, further twisting that oh so well balanced knife. > [@Zakalwe](#): > > Hunter guy says “6 attacks this week” meaning a TVA meta-week. That implies that the attacker is hooked into the TVA continuity. And they are monitoring the timeline as though it was changing in real time relative to their timeline… if that makes any sense. 😖 The only question is is this something that is done by convention, or by actual physical law. The idea that the Loki that they are chasing is this variant in his future timeline would require someone hooked into the meta-timeline to then be able to move around in that timeline. Being such sticklers for preserving the sacred timeline, I can certainly see how they would also follow protocol of not crossing their own timeline, but Loki’s never been all that big on following protocol. > [@Zakalwe](#): > > And I personally think Owen is killing it in this role. Strangely, I agree. I’ve never much cared for him, he basically just plays stupid characters, and I’ve never had much truck for that. In this, he somehow comes across as just playing stupid for the benefit of having others underestimate him, but is actually highly intelligent. I worried about him when I heard about the casting, but somehow or other, this actually works. About his intelligence, he obviously has something going on, as he says that he has studied “almost every moment” of Loki’s life, (though I think that line is actually in the trailer and hasn’t come up in the series yet, so maybe not canon). This brings up two points, one that he is able to remember the events over a being’s 1500 year life, implying a great intellect, and the other that there were _some_ moments of Loki’s life that for some reason they did _not_ have access to. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2021, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/85 "2021-06-12T23:54:49Z")
So - in essence - TVA is saying that all of the other potential timelines caused by the Avenger’s ‘time heist’ have been neutralized - not by the actions of Steve Rogers, but by the actions of the TVA. So - in the future where Stark snaps and dies - that future is technically a branch of the original, since Thanos jumped forward after he lost his head - or is that the master timeline and the spot where Thanos jumped - that timeline is now gone. And I have a hard time calling Loki - or the guy that was late for work - criminals or variants - Loki didn’t jump time - he simply left where he was. I could see ‘pruning the branch’ - but to haul someone in to court to accuse them of being a criminal seems a bit - well - harsh. Now, if they are doing it on purpose - that might, perhaps, be a different story. I’m really waiting to see a Tardis somewhere in the corner - this is all very wibbly wobbly and I should likely just enjoy the ride - they can’t do any worse for time management then the legends. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/86 "2021-06-13T02:13:34Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > > [@Smapti](#): > > > > In a way, it kinda reminds me of the deliberately anachronistic setting of Archer - presumably sometime during the Cold War, with '60s cars and fashion sensibilities, '80s desktop computers, and smartphones. > > I think it’s _exactly_ that. See also _The Venture Brothers_. I don’t think there’s a cool trope name for it yet, but I think retro Jet Age futurism is definitely an emerging aesthetic. > > And between the TVA, the _very_ similar agency, Temps Aeternalis, in _The Umbrella Academy_, and the version of the Adjustment Bureau from the eponymous movie, it now seems to be the default aesthetic for the rather specific trope of timeline maintenance bureaucracies. I was thinking something similar. I think someone else mentioned Gilliam as his film Brazil is an obvious reference. Defending Your Life also had a similar multidimensional “bureaucracy”. Also toss in Counterpart the Fallout series of games. In particular the Miss Minutes infomercial and the robot that lasered Loki’s fine Asgardian leather clothes. Also Susan (Seth Rogan) and the time cops from Future Man on Hulu (“NONE of you ever tried to stop Hitler!”) I suppose maybe that’s the only way mere mortals can perceive something like the TVA. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/87 "2021-06-13T02:30:00Z")
Does the TVA have to reset the millions of alternate timelines Dr Strange created fighting Momammu and figuring out how to beat Thanos? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/88 "2021-06-13T04:36:58Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think someone else mentioned Gilliam as his film Brazil is an obvious reference. Speaking of references, Loki crash landing in Mongolia looked a lot like Tony Stark crash landing his Iron Man Mk I suit after escaping the cave in the first _Iron Man_ movie. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/89 "2021-06-13T15:39:43Z")
If Loki pisses off after Avengers… a lot of bad things can happen. At worst Thor is stuck with Jeff Goldblum while Earth gets ravaged and theres no Avengers for Ant Man to go back to. Other little changes shoudnt concern the TVA…only ones that are going to create an alternate timeline that crosses the red line. Unfortunately this all complicates EVEN MORE my head canon on what happened with Steve\* - Surely Steve didnt just let events play out on his alternate Earth? Surely he did his best to stop Hydra? Surely he rescued Bucky? Woke up Popcycle Steve and helped him? …but all this is not a minor thing. I guess Red Skull told him that he can get what he wants but cannot alter events. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/90 "2021-06-13T17:37:10Z")
He only looked forward into time, he didn’t actually travel to those timelines, so they were not actually realized. As far as Momammu, he didn’t travel back in time or change anything, just looped his own timeline. > [@Pavelb1](#): > > Other little changes shoudnt concern the TVA…only ones that are going to create an alternate timeline that crosses the red line. It sounds like _any_ change will eventually cross the red line. There is only _one_ sacred timeline, all others are to be “pruned”. What happens when the red line is crossed isn’t clear, but it seems the efforts are to prevent it from ever getting that far. > [@Pavelb1](#): > > - Surely Steve didnt just let events play out on his alternate Earth? Surely he did his best to stop Hydra? Surely he rescued Bucky? Woke up Popcycle Steve and helped him? …but all this is not a minor thing. > > I guess Red Skull told him that he can get what he wants but cannot alter events. Or the TVA told him that. They may have scooped him up, and offered him the chance to live out his life with Peggy, so long as he didn’t try to change anything. In a scene in the TVA, in the background a time agent comes through a portal with a person that looks quite a bit like Peggy. If his options were to live out his life with his love and not try to change anything, or not get to live out his life with his love and still not be able to change anything due to being “reset”, he may have taken the former choice. Does returning the stones actually restore the timelines, or is enough damage done by the events of them being removed in the first place to cause a divergence? Obviously, the timeline where the power stone and soulstone came from cannot be “fixed”, as it’s missing Thanos and his minions. If only the timestone was taken from New York, then the Ancient One may have been able to prevent its temporary absence from causing a divergence, but that’s also the same timeline that not only had Rogers make some serious alterations with his “Hail Hydra”, but also got ruined by Loki escaping with the Tesseract. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/91 "2021-06-13T19:16:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If his options were to live out his life with his love and not try to change anything, or not get to live out his life with his love and still not be able to change anything due to being “reset”, he may have taken the former choice. Absolutely no way Steve ever takes that deal. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/92 "2021-06-13T19:22:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > but that’s also the same timeline that not only had Rogers make some serious alterations with his “Hail Hydra”, Thank you. I keep forgetting to mention that almost certainly enacted some sort of ‘scorched earth’ response from Hydra. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/93 "2021-06-13T20:02:29Z")
I don’t see why not. If the consequence of him changing anything results in the destruction of the entire universe that branches from his changes, and everyone in it, then things like saving Bucky or preventing 9/11 seem pretty petty in comparison. Maybe he was allowed to do some behind the scenes stuff, and prevent some even worse tragedies that we never even knew would’ve happened. The facts that we know are that he _did_ live a life with Peggy, and we know that it was not an alternate timeline, as the TVA doesn’t allow alternate timelines. So we know that he lived in _this_ timeline, through events without changing them, without rescuing Bucky, the only question is why. > [@Pavelb1](#): > > I keep forgetting to mention that almost certainly enacted some sort of ‘scorched earth’ response from Hydra. Of course, they wouldn’t have gotten much further than setting up a conference call before the TVA demonstrated what “scorched earth” really means. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/94 "2021-06-13T21:10:57Z")
I probably should just ditch any connections to old movies from here on ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/95 "2021-06-13T21:14:19Z")
Oh and IF that is supposed to be Peggy in the background, I would bet it’s related to What If and not Endgame ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/96 "2021-06-13T21:31:03Z")
Yeah, after Endgame, there was quite a bit of speculation as to how things would work out with the changes made, if some of them could be undone, and what those universes would end up looking like. Now we find out that they were most likely pruned as soon as our “heroes” left them. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/97 "2021-06-13T23:58:09Z")
With all this time travel and multiple dimensions, I feel like it’s only a matter of time (pun not intended) until Christopher Nolan is directing Avengers movies. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/98 "2021-06-14T01:11:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t see why not. Because he’s Captain America, and sitting quietly by while an evil organization wipes out trillions of lives, over and over, is not what Captain American does. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/99 "2021-06-14T02:34:01Z")
> [@Pavelb1](#): > > Thank you. I keep forgetting to mention that almost certainly enacted some sort of ‘scorched earth’ response from Hydra. Would it? I kind of love the idea that there’s a timeline where Hydra is 100% certain Steve works for them, but Steve (the one native to that timeline) has no idea why all these Hydra agents keep spontaneously outing themselves to him. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625/100 "2021-06-14T02:35:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Because he’s Captain America, and sitting quietly by while an evil organization wipes out trillions of lives, over and over, is not what Captain American does. And yet he did, because the JFK assassination, Watergate, the Stark murders, and 9/11 all still happened in the Sacred Timeline. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loki-tv-series-discussion-spoilers/931625.md?page=6)