# London Death Pump **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 30, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301 "2024-09-30T19:21:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/1 "2024-09-30T19:21:27Z")
The story is that there was a public pump in London which, since antiquity, provided famously delicious water. After a big cholera outbreak it was determined that the great taste, and the cholera, was due to the rainwater filtering through cemeteries. The pump most associated with the story still stands, and it marks the border of East London. Apparently a different public pump was the big death dealer. Anyway, that sounds like the kind of weird story I should have been at least vaguely aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/2 "2024-09-30T19:25:02Z")
The [cholera outbreak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak) was near Broad Street in 1854. And I think the big deal was how a physician named John Snow was able to trace the source of the infections to that pump. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/3 "2024-09-30T19:28:00Z")
I’ve read a fair amount about the 1854 cholera outbreak and John Snow’s famous investigation, but I’ve never heard anything about water filtering through a cemetery. That doesn’t really make sense to me, because cholera is generally transmitted by fresh human feces, not by dead decaying flesh. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/4 "2024-09-30T19:30:37Z")
Yeah it’s a super famous case, that was critical in the acceptance of the germ theory of disease (one of the most important scientific theories in human history) It’s also a very famous instance of making a case well with data visualisation: [https://inferentialthinking.com/chapters/02/1/observation-and-visualization-john-snow-and-the-broad-street-pump.html](https://inferentialthinking.com/chapters/02/1/observation-and-visualization-john-snow-and-the-broad-street-pump.html) ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/5 "2024-09-30T19:34:17Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > was due to the rainwater filtering through cemeteries. IIRC correctly it was putrid water from a nearby pool of water that was leaking into the pipe underground. The actual cholera outbreak was traced to an infant who died of cholera, their parents threw their dirty diapers into a pool of fetid water next to the building (cos living in a 19th century city suuuucked). ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/6 "2024-09-30T19:34:27Z")
‘You know nothing John Snow, Lister is coming…’ ~ Semmelweis ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/7 "2024-09-30T22:49:06Z")
👍👍👍 (Discourse) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/8 "2024-10-01T01:00:54Z")
We planned to visit the infamous pump on our trip last year to London, but it was too much of a schlep that day and we were tired. But we researched it and were pretty psyched to see it. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/9 "2024-10-01T01:27:21Z")
Hence the importance of sanitary sewers to collect and remove sewage so that it can be properly treated and not contaminate wells. This is what I work on every day: the engineering involved in rehabilitating and replacing sewers that are typically more than 100 years old. My utility also maintains the drinking water system so that people aren’t dependent on local wells in the first place. It’s a two-pronged approach that has been put in place in most cities now since the late 1800s or early 1900s, which is why you rarely hear about cholera outbreaks these days. The water mains and sewer mains that were installed back then were designed to last around 100 years, which is why pretty much all of them need to be replaced now. I will never be out of work—and neither will my son, who is also a civil engineer in the water and wastewater field. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/10 "2024-10-01T01:28:53Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I will never be out of work—and neither will my son, who is also a civil engineer in the water and wastewater field. Here’s to you and your son…unsung heroes. 👍🏻👍🏻 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/11 "2024-10-01T01:53:36Z")
> **[1854 Broad Street cholera outbreak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak)** > > The Broad Street cholera outbreak (or Golden Square outbreak) was a severe outbreak of cholera that occurred in 1854 near Broad Street (now Broadwick Street) in Soho, London, England, and occurred during the 1846–1860 cholera pandemic happening worldwide. This outbreak, which killed 616 people, is best known for the physician John Snow's study of its causes and his hypothesis that germ-contaminated water was the source of cholera, rather than particles in the air (referred to as "miasma"). In ... and of course- _After the cholera epidemic had subsided, government officials replaced the Broad Street pump handle. They had responded only to the urgent threat posed to the population, and afterwards they rejected Snow’s theory. To accept his proposal would have meant indirectly accepting the oral-faecal method of transmission of disease, which was too unpleasant for most of the public to contemplate.[[22]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak#cite_note-22)_ ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/12 "2024-10-01T14:42:54Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > > [@robby](#): > > > > I will never be out of work—and neither will my son, who is also a civil engineer in the water and wastewater field. > > Here’s to you and your son…unsung heroes. 👍🏻👍🏻 Thank you! 😊 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/13 "2024-10-01T14:46:50Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > It’s also a very famous instance of making a case well with data visualisation: > [https://inferentialthinking.com/chapters/02/1/observation-and-visualization-john-snow-and-the-broad-street-pump.html](https://inferentialthinking.com/chapters/02/1/observation-and-visualization-john-snow-and-the-broad-street-pump.html) Good job to Dr Snow for his remarkable work. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/14 "2024-10-01T14:52:47Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Good job to Dr Snow for his remarkable work Its pretty much mandatory that any presentation that touches on the history of data visualisation includes that map and Minard’s visualisation of Napoleon’s troops numbers during the invasion of Russia: > **[Flow Map of Napoleon's Invasion of Russia - Age of Revolution](https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/flow-map-of-napoleons-invasion-of-russia/)** ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/15 "2024-10-01T15:06:29Z")
I had a copy of Minard’s visualization hanging in an old apartment. I first learned about it while reading the first of [Edward Tufte](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Tufte)’s books. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/16 "2024-10-01T17:07:02Z")
And Florence Nightingale: > **[How Florence Nightingale Changed Data Visualization Forever](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-florence-nightingale-changed-data-visualization-forever/)** > > The celebrated nurse improved public health through her groundbreaking use of graphic storytelling And also WEB Du Bois: > **[Visualizing Injustice: Early NAACP Cartographers and Racial Inequality in...](https://blogs.loc.gov/maps/2022/01/visualizing-injustice-early-naacp-cartographers-and-racial-inequality-in-america/)** > > No good result can come from any investigation which refuses to consider the facts. A conclusion that is based upon a presumption, instead of the best evidence, is unworthy of a moments consideration.             ... ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/17 "2024-10-01T17:20:53Z")
As I recall, [url=[The Ghost Map: The Story of London's Most Terrifying Epidemic-and How It Changed Science, Cities, and the Modern World: Johnson, Steven: 9781594482694: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Map-Londons-Terrifying-Epidemic/dp/1594482691)}The Ghost Map[/url], about this incident, is quite well written. Also goes into various related aspects, such as the evolutionary need of a virus to spread quickly, and not kill their host too fast. As I recall, it had to do with an underground “catch basin” - an aspect of architecture/construction associated with housing in that period. Rather than a nearby pool of water. But my memory may be mistaken. And, if you enjoy that, you should read up on the history of urban sewers. Such as (IIRC) London placing their discharges into the Thames such that when the tide came in, the sewage washed back upstream… ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/18 "2024-10-01T17:32:17Z")
That was indeed an excellent book, and you correctly remember that it was a cesspool that had been ‘lost’ after street revisions that was located too closely (and leaking into) a new well. > Researchers later discovered that this public well had been dug only 3 feet (0.9 m) from an old [cesspit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesspit), which had begun to leak faecal bacteria. The cloth nappy of a baby, who had contracted cholera from another source, had been washed into this cesspit. Its opening was originally under a nearby house, which had been rebuilt farther away after a fire. The city had widened the street and the cesspit was lost. It was common at the time to have a cesspit under most homes. Most families tried to have their raw sewage collected and dumped in the Thames to prevent their cesspit from filling faster than the sewage could decompose into the soil. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/19 "2024-10-01T18:26:00Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > As I recall, it had to do with an underground “catch basin” - an aspect of architecture/construction associated with housing in that period. Rather than a nearby pool of water. But my memory may be mistaken. It was a cesspit that was only three feet from the well in question. “Catch basins” are associated with stormwater systems and are somewhat different. A cesspit is a precursor to a more modern septic tank, basically consisting of a cylindrical brick structure with gaps in the bricks to allow effluent to seep into the groundwater. It does little to lessen the impact of the waste on the surrounding environment. A modern septic system, on the other hand, consists of a tank that retains the solids (which are subsequently broken down by biological action and which have to be pumped out periodically), and the liquids overflow into a large leach field consisting of several 75-100 long perforated pipes in trenches. This necessarily takes up a lot of area, so they are not at all suitable for urban environments (but are still commonly and safely used in low density rural areas). And modern septic systems still need to be some distance away from any wells (typically \>100 feet). Cesspits are no longer legal in any jurisdiction that I’m aware of, even rural ones. Having one in an urban area right next to a drinking water well is mind-boggling to me. High-density urban areas don’t have the room for septic systems, so sanitary sewers are utilized instead to collect and transport the wastewater to a centralized wastewater treatment plant. ETA: I had drafted this an hour or so ago, but got interrupted by actual work before I could post it. 😉 And I now see that @Pork_Rind already referenced a couple of points I made. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301/20 "2024-10-01T18:53:36Z")
Sometimes the soil is too thin for a conventual septic system (My brother was so happy when his new lot passed the perk test so he could have one). I think you either need a mound system or a holding tank, which you guessed it just holds waste until being pumped out. I know of one park that has a system that uses wood chips (you are supposed to add a shovel full after every use) – not sure how may people/day it is designed for I’m not sure wilderness latrines count on low usage or are periodically moved.(on Whitney trail, you have to pack your waste out, as there is too much use/too dry for the bio to degrade) Brian knows the first law of Civil Engineering [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-death-pump/1008301.md?page=2)