# London Hit By Terror Attacks (What is the appropriate response?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2005, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438 "2005-07-07T10:15:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/41 "2005-07-07T11:52:14Z")
I hope all our London and Britain dopers, and all their friends and loved ones, are OK. My sympathies to all of you. > [@Grim Jaa](#): > > Reports indictated that an entire double decker bus exploded. “The roof completely came off”. > > How can the casaulties only be “2” with something which surely killed everyone on board? You’d be surprised how much it takes to kill people… and if what **GorillaMan** has said about the roofs being intentionally flimsy is correct, that may have been a design decision that has saved many lives – if the roof blows first, a lot of the energy from the explosion follows the path of least resistence (up, in this case), instead of spreading horizontally and causing far more casualties. Don’t ask me how I know all this. Just look at my location ---
**Author:** ![Hustle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@Hustle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hustle)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/42 "2005-07-07T11:52:56Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > From the pictures, the roof certainly seems to have come off - but the lower deck certainly wasn’t destroyed. Those roofs are intentionally flimsy, to keep the weight down. The seats in busses are fairly sturdy and would provide some shielding from the blast. I’d expect the number to rise though. [![](http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41277000/jpg/_41277449_bus_close_reader.jpg) ](http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41277000/jpg/_41277449_bus_close_reader.jpg) > [@Me](#): > > The home secretary is speaking in the house of commons now: > > He says -4- explosions are confirmed. (News say 6 underground plus 1 bus) Apparently there was an hour-long delay after the first four explosions. I’m assuming the home secretary’s information wasn’t updated in time. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/43 "2005-07-07T11:54:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > They can’t. Bus bombings usually kill at least a dozen, depending on the time of day. Sadly, I have some knowlege of the subject. You’re right, it’ll simply depend on how busy the bus was. When an IRA bomb prematurely exploded blew up a bus in 1996, the only death was the guy transporting it. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/44 "2005-07-07T11:55:24Z")
> [@Grim Jaa](#): > > Reports indictated that an entire double decker bus exploded. “The roof completely came off”. > > How can the casaulties only be “2” with something which surely killed everyone on board? My guess is that this one was an “accident” and that it was a bomb being carried on its way to another underground station that’s gone off early. The upper deck of double deckers is usually less crowded. It’s not where you’d deliberately put a bomb if you were trying to cause carnage. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/45 "2005-07-07T11:56:48Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > … and if what **GorillaMan** has said about the roofs being intentionally flimsy is correct, that may have been a design decision that has saved many lives If this is the case, it’s by accident. The lightweigh design of the upper deck is more mundane - it’s to keep the centre of gravity low, for stability. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/46 "2005-07-07T11:57:40Z")
I hope they don’t start saying how “sophisticated” the attacks were. A dozen guys with synchronized watches could have carried it out. It was a cowardly attack of criminals, nothing more. Terrorism will be with us for decades if not centuries. The Israelis have dealing with it longer and better than anyone, yet even they are not able to completely eliminate attacks in their nation. The best you can do is eliminate opportunity as much as possible. Unfortunately, there isn’t a logical military target for retaliation. Using the attacks to justify or unjustify the Iraqi war miss the point. These attacks could have and probably would have happened regardless of Bush’s hijinks. The only logical response is increased vigilance and diligence. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/47 "2005-07-07T11:58:11Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > My guess is that this one was an “accident” and that it was a bomb being carried on its way to another underground station that’s gone off early. The upper deck of double deckers is usually less crowded. It’s not where you’d deliberately put a bomb if you were trying to cause carnage. Some reports are saying the blast came from the rear of the lower deck. ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/48 "2005-07-07T12:01:03Z")
There are already four threads on the subject. Is there an actual debate here, or is this just another place to post news updates? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/49 "2005-07-07T12:02:17Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > If this is the case, it’s by accident. The lightweigh design of the upper deck is more mundane - it’s to keep the centre of gravity low, for stability. I don’t doubt that the roof wasn’t planned that way as an anti-terror measure. I agree it’s a lucky accident (if the term lucky can be properly applied to such a situation) – Israeli busses, with a solid roof (and an A/C unit on top of that!) on them, tended to burst sidewise, through the wondows, causing far more casualties, as **Alessan** has already mentioned. I guess anything keeping the death toll down has to be considered good… or at least not as bad as it could have been. Hang in there. Dani ---
**Author:** ![Butterscotch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Butterscotch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Butterscotch)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/50 "2005-07-07T12:10:08Z")
The BBC web-site is obviously very busy, try this for more news if you can’t get to the Beeb; [http://www.msn.co.uk/news/newsflash/](http://www.msn.co.uk/news/newsflash/) The latest I read was: 7 bombs, 6 in trains, one on the bus. People are still trapped in the tunnel at King’s Cross with witnesses saying there are still bodies down there. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/51 "2005-07-07T12:14:40Z")
> [@Grim Jaa](#): > > Reports indictated that an entire double decker bus exploded. “The roof completely came off”. > > How can the casaulties only be “2” with something which surely killed everyone on board? After seeing the aftermath of one or two bombings in Northern Ireland, bomb blasts can be strange. A hotel was blown up in Co. Fermanagh and one house opposite was barely scratched but another beside it had a roof rippled from the blast and windows shattered. An appalling atrocity, but maybe not as bad as the Spanish bombings. Wasn’t there word of much higher casualties in a smaller space of time in Spain? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/52 "2005-07-07T12:42:21Z")
Wouldn’t surprise me at all. Newsies (of which I’ve been one), especially the TV guys, are great at the set piece reporting but tend to be weaker at ‘on the fly’ coverage. So things get distorted or reported before confirm. Nyeh. It happens. Reports from the field…from a pal of mine (a journalist) in London right now: > [@](#): > > Man…… yeah am okay. All my friends are accounted for only one works over Liverpool St way. Can’t help think though that I could have been on that Bus. > > Total chaos here. The mobile phone networks are struggling and a friend working at London Transport sounds like he’s gonna have a breakdown. He rang me when the news said something about a power surge and said “fuck that it’s two bombs and a train crash so far” > > Having said that the response of our emergency services has been awesome. The Army were on the roof within 40 mins and all the public transport system was closed within 90. > > Right thing too. Had a report (unconfirmed) that a bomb went off on a bus returning to base after getting rid of all its passengers. > > Nice speech by Tony. Nothing fake about that ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/53 "2005-07-07T12:50:27Z")
> [@RumMunkey](#): > > And here we are, we have done what we have promised. We have done a military operation after heavy work and planning, which the mujahideen have done, and it has taken a long time to ensure the success of this operation. > > And we still warn the government of Denmark and Italy, all the crusader governments, that they will have the same punishment if they do not pull their forces out of Iraq and Afghanistan. > > So beware.\* So the line is the sand is drawn. Are we going to react like Chamberlin or Churchill? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/54 "2005-07-07T12:56:05Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Are we going to react like Chamberlin or Churchill? Or like Godwin? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/55 "2005-07-07T13:11:04Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > So the line is the sand is drawn. Are we going to react like Chamberlin or Churchill? What line? What sand? Who is on the other side of it? Who drew it? What are you talking about? We don’t even know who did this yet. This is not the time for galvanized action. It is a time for relief from immediate injuries and putting the city back together again, not the smallest part of which will be getting people to trust the tube and bus again. Investigation will likely turn up who did this and then should come the calls for action. The sad reality is that any number of groups could have done this and none of them are standing in plain sight on the other side of some line in the sand. If they were then it would be simple, just put a fucking bullet in their heads. But right now we don’t even know which heads to aim at and putting bullets in heads innocent of this crime would be compounding the tragedy. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/56 "2005-07-07T13:27:11Z")
Another point to be made. Whatever the spin on the Spanish withdrawal from Iraq, AQ saw it as a simple cause and effect equation that worked in their favor. However…it’s no accident that London was hit. When Madrid was hit and Zapatero pulled out of Iraq, myself and others said that that action would trigger another attack. Here it is. And now Denmark and Italy are being directly threatened. The thing that frustrates me about this attack is the pointlessness. If the British had been thinking about pulling out of Iraq before the attack, they certainly won’t now. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/57 "2005-07-07T13:32:10Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > However…it’s no accident that London was hit. When Madrid was hit and Zapatero pulled out of Iraq, myself and others said that that action would trigger another attack. Here it is. And now Denmark and Italy are being directly threatened. So it’s not their involvement in Iraq that made Britain a target but the fact that the Spanish withdrew,…riiiiiight. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/58 "2005-07-07T13:34:52Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Another point to be made. Whatever the spin on the Spanish withdrawal from Iraq, AQ saw it as a simple cause and effect equation that worked in their favor. > > However…it’s no accident that London was hit. When Madrid was hit and Zapatero pulled out of Iraq, myself and others said that that action would trigger another attack. Here it is. And now Denmark and Italy are being directly threatened. > > The thing that frustrates me about this attack is the pointlessness. If the British had been thinking about pulling out of Iraq before the attack, they certainly won’t now. Britain is and always has been a primary target for Al Qaeda, irrespective of Spain, or of the Iraq war, or anything else. There’s a real sense of inevitability about today’s attack. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/59 "2005-07-07T13:41:28Z")
Latro, please slowly read the following sentence from RumMonkeys post regarding the AQ statement this morning. “And we still warn the government of Denmark and Italy, all the crusader governments, that they will have the same punishment if they do not pull their forces out of Iraq and Afghanistan.” Now…try to think how AQ saw the Spanish withdrawal. Not how you see it…how they did. The statement above is clear…except to those who are undergoing strenuous mental gyrations to try to avoid the point. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438/60 "2005-07-07T13:41:53Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Another point to be made. Whatever the spin on the Spanish withdrawal from Iraq, AQ saw it as a simple cause and effect equation that worked in their favor. Cite? Something from bin Laden about how pleased they are with the Spanish reaction to their demands would be peachy. Or just whatever you got. Without substantiation though I’m afraid it looks like you’re just making assertions based on your own assumptions. Enjoy, Steven [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-hit-by-terror-attacks-what-is-the-appropriate-response/311438.md?page=4)