# London Olympics - what is a "Sport"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 26, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495 "2012-07-26T20:52:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/1 "2012-07-26T20:52:59Z")
I am hoping to find some opinions regarding the various events at the Olympics (and in general). There are two kinds of events - those that are objective, where the clock or number of goals determines the winner. And those that are subjective, which rely on judges, to determine the winner. I have heard some arguments that the subjective events are not really “sports” because the outcome always depends on a person or persons, with all their human frailties and prejudices and tastes, making a judgment call. For example: Objective: Track and Field, Swimming, Soccer, Cycling, Rowing, etc. Subjective: Gymnastics, Diving, Synchronized Swimming, Equestrian, etc. I can see the argument. Can the best gymnast really be determined any better than, say the best guitarist in the world, or the best painter? It is like judging which opening ceremony is better, London or Beijing? - it is all a matter of opinion. At least with the objective events, it is usually pretty clear who is the winner. The argument usually accounts for officiating to enforce rules, that can have some bearing on the outcome of events, but does not decide the winner directly. Closer to home, there is debate over Cheerleading as a sport. I suppose if you accept Gymnastics, etc. as a sport, then you should accept Cheerleading as a sport as well, right? In your opinion, are the subjective Olympic events less of a “sport” than the objective ones? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/2 "2012-07-26T21:29:39Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > In your opinion, are the subjective Olympic events less of a “sport” than the objective ones? Why? I would disagree with your basic premise that Olympic sports must be completely one thing or the other. What you call objective sports still have some element of judging; did a soccer player commit a foul, did a sprinting cyclist move off his line and impede another rider, did a swimmer maintain the required form in the breast stroke, etc. In the subjective events, there are still specific, objective rules to adhere to; did a gymnast have more pauses in a routine than are permitted, did a diver perform dives from all the required groups. You might be able to rank sports on a continuum of objective vs. subjective results, but it’s not a hard-and-fast line that divides them. For that matter, I would disagree with your categorization of equestrian as subjective. Dressage has been much in the news lately, and it is judged. Other events, like show jumping or cross-country, are timed and have penalties for knocking down rails or refusing jumps. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/3 "2012-07-26T21:47:30Z")
Right. All sports fall somewhere on the objective-subjective spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/4 "2012-07-26T22:33:46Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Can the best gymnast really be determined any better than, say the best guitarist in the world, or the best painter? You can determine the best guitarist if you have some criteria that is rated by judges. You can’t just say, “Steve Vai is better than Jason Vieaux” because it’s apples and oranges. But if you give everybody the exact same song to play and rate things like fretting accuracy and other mechanics, I would be comfortable with that. The criteria for most of what you listed are consistent and tend to be around mechanics and execution. However, you can see the shear subjectivity in the spread of the judges’ scores. Where I do have a problem is in ice skating, especially ice dancing, where judging includes artistic interpretation which makes it not-a-sport as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/5 "2012-07-26T22:53:50Z")
A sport is what I’m pointing at when I say, “That is a sport.” Ultimately, that’s the only accurate definition. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/6 "2012-07-26T23:46:57Z")
I think I see a thread like this – maybe several like this – every time the Olympics come around. But the bottom line is pretty much what\*\* RealityChuck\*\* said: It’s a sport if people agree it’s a sport. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/7 "2012-07-27T00:48:54Z")
I’m going to move this to the Game Room. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/8 "2012-07-27T01:00:15Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I think I see a thread like this – maybe several like this – every time the Olympics come around. I’m curious what we said before. Can you link to some of them? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/9 "2012-07-27T01:14:23Z")
Is poker a sport? It’s not in the Olympics but it’s on ESPN. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/10 "2012-07-27T01:18:24Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I’m curious what we said before. Can you link to some of them? [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=74243) is a [good](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=317325) [number](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=458468) of [examples](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=418757) on [the](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=217746) [subject](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=110798). For the record, I have not read the threads, so their relevance may be limited. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/11 "2012-07-27T01:24:26Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Is poker a sport? It’s not in the Olympics but it’s on ESPN. More than any other aspect, a sport must include a physical endeavor in order to determine a victor. Holding one’s bladder is the closest poker comes to that. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/12 "2012-07-27T01:36:37Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Closer to home, there is debate over Cheerleading as a sport. I suppose if you accept Gymnastics, etc. as a sport, then you should accept Cheerleading as a sport as well, right? [del]Pole Dancing[/del] [Pole Sports](http://www.polesports.org/). > [@](#): > > Far from being just about pole dancing, pole sports or ‘vertical gymnastics’, requires strength, athleticism, creativity, and grace. And pole sports athletes across the world are ready to get their sport recognized by the greatest sporting event in the world, the Olympic Games. > … > The IPSF is an organization for promoting athletic competition in pole sports and uniting pole sports athletes around the world. Its aim is to make pole sports more prominent in the sports community and to get pole sports competitions in major global sporting events such as the World Games and the Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/13 "2012-07-27T02:11:04Z")
> [@Covered\_In\_Bees](#): > > [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=74243) is a [good](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=317325) [number](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=458468) of [examples](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=418757) on [the](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=217746) [subject](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=110798). > > For the record, I have not read the threads, so their relevance may be limited. D’oh! Thanks for that. I should brush up on my search skills before posting. I should have known this would have been covered here before. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/14 "2012-07-27T02:16:10Z")
I wouldn’t worry about it. The most recent thread I linked to was from 2008. I’m sure there’s been a few more since then, but as long as this subject wasn’t touched on less than a month ago, you’re good. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/15 "2012-07-27T02:19:36Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Is poker a sport? It’s not in the Olympics but it’s on ESPN. > [@garygnu](#): > > More than any other aspect, a sport must include a physical endeavor in order to determine a victor. Holding one’s bladder is the closest poker comes to that. [Bridge is a sport recognized by the Olympics, and is working toward eventually taking a seat in the Winter Olympics.](http://www.worldbridge.org/IOC/IOC.htm) [Chess is also a sport recognized by the Olympics. Note that motorized sports, including auto racing, speed boat racing, and water skiing, are recognized as sports, but due to being motorized can not be included in the Olympics.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_sports) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/16 "2012-07-27T02:29:05Z")
What difference does a motor make, if they’re considering competitions with no physical component whatever? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/17 "2012-07-27T02:37:49Z")
In some competitive sports it is easier to determine a winner and in some competitive sports it is more difficult to determine a winner. Whether a sport is a competitive sport or not is entirely unrelated to whether the sport is a sport or not. Relative ease or difficulty in determining the winner of a competitive sport is entriely unrelated to whether the sport is a sport or not. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/18 "2012-07-27T02:42:59Z")
What? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/19 "2012-07-27T03:00:57Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What difference does a motor make, if they’re considering competitions with no physical component whatever? I think that RealityChuck got it in one: > [@RealityChuck](#): > > A sport is what I’m pointing at when I say, “That is a sport.” > > Ultimately, that’s the only accurate definition. Just because a sport may or may not be eligible for inclusion in the Olympics, and just because an eligible sport is actually included or not in the Olympics, has not bearing on whether or not that sport is a sport. The Olympics has arbitrarily decided to not include motorsports or sports with a direct motor component in the Olympics. The Olympics has arbitrarily decided to consider including sports with no direct physical compent in the Olympics. Don’t expect any rhyme or reason in this, and do not expect consistency over time, for the Olympics will invite or drop sports as it sees fit at any given time. In general, the Olympics requires that a sport have an international organizing body, and that it be internationally popular, but beyond that it is a crap shoot as to whether a sport will make it into the Olympics, particuarly now that the is little if any room left at the inn given the time and cost constraints the Olympics faces. In general, sports with strong spectator appeal (e.g. snowboarding half-pipe) stand a much better chance at admission than sports with little spectator appeal (e.g. telemarking). I mention these two sports because they both tried to get admitted into the Olympics at the same time. One is based entirely on judging, but is hugely popular. The other only uses judges to decide penalties, but is mostly unknown. Being an organization that is based on popular appeal, particularly with respect to it’s income primarily being dependant on television broadcasting contracts, the Olympics chose to admit snowboarding half-pipe into the very limited space available in the Winter Olympics. The decision was based on practicality – on what sells. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495/20 "2012-07-27T03:07:50Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > In general, sports with strong spectator appeal (e.g. snowboarding half-pipe) stand a much better chance at admission than sports with little spectator appeal (e.g. telemarking). Did anyone else see this and read telemarketing and say “What!!!”? I do agree it has little – probably no – spectator appeal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-olympics-what-is-a-sport/629495.md?page=2)