# London Thanks the USAF for Their Support **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 12, 2005, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150 "2005-07-12T08:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/221 "2005-07-14T09:35:59Z")
> [@Stryfe](#): > > I third the motion that **Lt AF** is either a fake or is seriously whooshing us. “You can’t handle the truth.” ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/222 "2005-07-14T10:48:40Z")
Hah, very funny. Now I will forever see Lt Af as jack Nicholson. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/223 "2005-07-14T11:26:56Z")
> [@Ferdechhio](#): > > [You do the same.](http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/reference/normandy/normandy.htm) We don’t forget stuff like that. That’s why half a million people were commemorating it in central London last Sunday - [link](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1525601,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/224 "2005-07-14T12:34:45Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Wow, can’t you just feel the love for the military in this thread? Well, Lt. AF is coming across as a bit of a caricature. That being said, I do love the people who are willing to immediately internet diagnose fascism and psychopathy. Reminds me of freshman year of college. ---
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/225 "2005-07-14T12:46:42Z")
> [@Stryfe](#): > > I third the motion that **Lt AF** is either a fake or is seriously whooshing us. > > Surely there can’t really be people that think like that in the USAF? He/she’s like a combination of all of the worst military stereotypes known to mankind. > > If he/she is real then we can only hope that such attittudes are not common in the USAF, otherwise we really are in trouble. I suspect though that it was just a wind up, as he/she has not been back to refute these accusations since they were raised. I am sorry to say that from my personal experience that you will sometimes run into people that think this way. Most of the time though, you here it from brand new, just outta basic, troops. I have only seen one officer truly act this way and it was during a speech to bring up morale while we were in Baghdad. For the most part, officers are very reasoned and level headed. Sometimes though, you just shake your head and wonder how some people think that they are the only people on earth. One of the things I love about the Dope messageboards so much is that they give me a little world perspective on things. I think our friend LT (BTW… what LT doesn’t know his chain of command?) needs a little of it. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/226 "2005-07-14T15:07:03Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Well, Lt. AF is coming across as a bit of a caricature. That being said, I do love the people who are willing to immediately internet diagnose fascism and psychopathy. Reminds me of freshman year of college. Be careful! UnwrittenNocturne might kick your ass if he thinks you’re dissing him! He’s big and tough! He can do it! Don’t test him! He’ll meet you anytime, anywhere! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/227 "2005-07-14T19:10:02Z")
Whilst admittedly i’m not exactly best placed to comment on the feeling in London at this moment, i know how most of my friends have reacted to this, and i know what my immediate reaction was on hearing this, and **Campion** pretty much summed it up perfectly on the first page of this thread: > [@](#): > > “I mean, you know, we totally stand with you; just not with you with you, if you know what I mean. We’ll stand with you but keep a respectful distance. Like, maybe 30 or 40 kilometres.” Now obviously most - if not all - Brits and Londonners know that **this isn’t true**. We _aren’t_ outrageously offended, more slightly amused but - at the same time - mildly concerned that whilst _we_ know that it was not intended to show cowardice or a lack of support, others might not see it that way. Think of it as being like when your little brother\* does something slightly stupid at a party - you know its out of character, but worry that it presents him in the wrong light to other people who are present. Militarily, the protection of one’s own men must always dictate your first actions and i don’t think anyone can reasonably claim that the USAF’s response was not a sensible one to take. I think there is, however, room for criticism of the lack of forethought and pragmatism in _how_ that response was implemented/communicated - something that no doubt the General in question has already received an earful for. In other words, most of the people i know (myself included) have reacted more like **Angua** than **GorillaMan** and **Tagos**. The fact of the matter is, that the British Gutter Press is awfully short of things to get worked up about right now - the Emergency Services did a wonderful job, Blair’s reaction was creditable, the Police are making fantastic progress in identifying the perpetrators and those perpetrators don’t appear to be wonderfully easy to stereotype. That leaves the tabloids rather short of bullshit bandwagons to jump on (with the excecption of this one). \*Yes, the USA is Britain’s little brother. You are [Harry Bailey to our George](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038650/)😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/228 "2005-07-14T20:54:08Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Well, Lt. AF is coming across as a bit of a caricature. That being said, I do love the people who are willing to immediately internet diagnose fascism and psychopathy. Somewhat hard to diagnose a psychopath, but a fascist? “I’m not responisible to the people, all I do is follow orders and The Leader.” Seems rather cut and dry, no? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/229 "2005-07-14T21:49:06Z")
Harry Bailey? You must mean Halle Berry… 😃 Sadly, the **Lt AF** makes his branch of service look really awful–but I doubt that his way of thinking is in the majority. At least, I hope it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/230 "2005-07-14T22:31:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Somewhat hard to diagnose a psychopath, but a fascist? > “I’m not responisible to the people, all I do is follow orders and The Leader.” > > Seems rather cut and dry, no? I get your point, but I don’t think it’s completely cut and dry. His primary statement was regarding to defense of the Constitution, which is the document that gives power to the people. A bit subtle, I know, but I think it’s an important distinction. Second, what really makes me think of fascist is someone who believes that the state has the right to control every individual, typically through suppression. He could fairly say that **he** has chosen to obey leadership, but that others have not and are not bound as he is. Further, he might also say that he would not obey such leadership if it were not properly appointed by the people under the auspices of the Constitution. Don’t get me wrong, I hear where you are coming from, I just think it’s a bit harsh to presume he is a true fascist. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/231 "2005-07-14T22:38:52Z")
> [@garius](#): > > In other words, most of the people i know (myself included) have reacted more like **Angua** than **GorillaMan** and **Tagos**. I’d like to clarify that this thread has diverged considerably from a general discussion of last Thursday. I’ve been trying to respond to some idiotic, some vitriolic, and some plain stupid comments. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/232 "2005-07-18T19:10:44Z")
Just an update on LT AF the fake Airforce fucker. He can’t be bothered to answer the serious allegations about his authenticity yet he is posting new threads in CS. see: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6376391&postcount=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6376391&postcount=1) what a fucking tool. ---
**Author:** ![Lt\_AF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lt\_AF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lt_AF)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/233 "2005-07-19T05:45:28Z")
What do you want to know about me? Whether I’m “real” or not? If that’s all then the answer is yes. I stand by every single thing I said in this thread. As far as the whole pile-on over the chain of command thing here is a newflash for you. The ONLY civilian who can issue me orders that I’m sworn to follow is the POTUS. SECDEF and SECAF cannot. Not sure what me posting in a Cafe thread has to do with this one but, whatever. If anyone is doubting my authenticity then please, feel free to ask me any questions you like if it will convince you of my commissioned status. Otherwise I don’t really care. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/234 "2005-07-19T05:47:40Z")
Do the other officers you’ve met also have such trouble understanding that they’re citizen soldiers and not the Praetorian Guard? ---
**Author:** ![Lt\_AF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lt\_AF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lt_AF)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/235 "2005-07-19T06:04:00Z")
As many polls have shown, the majority of the US population wants us out of Iraq NOW and most never thought we should have been there in the first place. If I worked directly for the citizens of the US then why would I still be in Iraq? It’s because I don’t. It’s a shame that the people in this thread have such contempt for others, like myself, who do not share the same world view as them. So I’m a gung-ho American. That hurts you how? I’ve spent plenty of time in the big sandbox out east. I’ve lost several friends/aquantences in the last couple years (I deploy with the Army in my field). You bet your ass I’m gung-ho. Orders are given to be followed. Not to be questioned. It is intuitive (most of the time) whether they are lawful or not. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/236 "2005-07-19T07:24:17Z")
> [@Lt AF](#): > > As many polls have shown, the majority of the US population wants us out of Iraq NOW and most never thought we should have been there in the first place. > If I worked directly for the citizens of the US then why would I still be in Iraq? > It’s because I don’t. Actually, it’s because the citizenry hasn’t placed sufficient pressure upon their legislators, who are civilians. Even The Leader can’t keep you at war without their authorization. Now, does it not bother you that I’ve already shown you that participating, as an individual, in a war of agression is a war crime? Are you aware of the Office of Special Plans, the second Downing Street Memo, etc…? If so, why are you following orders which may make you a war criminal? > [@Lt AF](#): > > It’s a shame that the people in this thread have such contempt for others, like myself, who do not share the same world view as them. Wow, you’ve copped to this tradition real quick. Okay, upon the cross, hop on up there, and tell us how we’re being small minded and bigoted by not giving proper appreciation to our fascist overlords. Please. Ahem. You’ll find that, in general, people of a great many viewpoints talk it out on the Dope. The problem, here, is that you ‘speak’ like a fascist. That you do not believe you are bound by the citizenry or law is disturbing. ( And do not claim that you are a servant of the law if you willfully violate international law and participate in the occupation of Iraq. ) Like it or not, “ **We the people** of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” You’d perhaps do better in defending the constitution if you’d studied it. > [@Lt AF](#): > > So I’m a gung-ho American. Hell no. As this is an international message board people should understand that you are neither a good ambasador of American values nor are you in any way a ‘patriotic’, or ‘manly’ ‘gung-ho’ American. You’re a thug. You’ve abandoned the concept of _service_ for the security of obeying and giving orders. The military is not an end unto itself, but a means to an end. > [@Lt AF](#): > > That hurts you how? Your posts are the aesthetic equivilent of someone tracking some fresh dogshit onto the carpet. ~shrugs~ Do with that what you will. > [@Lt AF](#): > > I’ve spent plenty of time in the big sandbox out east. I’ve lost several friends/aquantences in the last couple years (I deploy with the Army in my field). You bet your ass I’m gung-ho. The loss of friends and, more to the point, American citizens is definitely deserving of mourning. But by the same token, being gung-ho to jump into a war which violates international law is not admirable, it’s a war crime. If you need to find something to be guno-ho about, how about peace? > [@Lt AF](#): > > Orders are given to be followed. Not to be questioned. It is intuitive (most of the time) whether they are lawful or not. If you never question, you’ll never know if they’re lawful or not. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/237 "2005-07-19T17:36:36Z")
> [@Lt AF](#): > > As many polls have shown, the majority of the US population wants us out of Iraq NOW and most never thought we should have been there in the first place. Which polls would those be? > [@ltaf](#): > > If I worked directly for the citizens of the US then why would I still be in Iraq? > > It’s because I don’t. First of all I am not sure you are in Iraq. With all the shit going down, how do you find time to whine about video games? > [@ltaf](#): > > It’s a shame that the people in this thread have such contempt for others, like myself, who do not share the same world view as them. So I’m a gung-ho American. That hurts you how? I’ve spent plenty of time in the big sandbox out east. I’ve lost several friends/aquantences in the last couple years (I deploy with the Army in my field). You bet your ass I’m gung-ho. Second of all you are not gung-ho, you are just stupid. I served in the gulf with the 101st MI LRSD Airborne. What unit do you claim to be in?. I was and still am as “gung-ho” as you claim to be. > [@ltaf](#): > > Orders are given to be followed. Not to be questioned. It is intuitive (most of the time) whether they are lawful or not. Do you realize that this belief did not work out so well for the German soldiers after WWII? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/238 "2005-07-19T18:59:17Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > First of all I am not sure you are in Iraq. With all the shit going down, how do you find time to whine about video games? Reminds me of a joke a buddy of mine in the USAF told me: US Army Ranger jumps out of a plane wearing a 75 pound pack. He lands in a swamp and starts off at a run saying “Goddamn, I love this shit!” Navy Seal jumps out of a boat wearing a 100 pound pack. He swims to shore and starts running through a swamp, saying “Goddamn, I love this shit!” Delta Force commando jumps out of a plane wearing a 150 pound pack and lands in a swamp then sets out running saying “Goddamn, I love this shit!” USAF officer is sitting around watching cable when all of a sudden the picture gets all fuzzy. He stands up and screams “Goddamn, I hate this shit!” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Mad\_Hermit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5ac83/32.png) [@The\_Mad\_Hermit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mad_Hermit)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/239 "2005-07-19T20:35:09Z")
I guess this is the first official step in the dissolution of any future association with the UK. The UK is mortified over the mere presence (or absence) of a few thousand Air Force personnel and their families, so it’s time to cut all contact and get out. Hey, maybe we can finish up with all that unpleasantness at the end of the 18th century, and give the British and others to right the mistake they made all those years ago. A nice nuclear exchange would solve all the world’s problems in less than a day. I wish hate were butter- it spreads like butter, but it’s not too tasty on bread. ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/240 "2005-07-19T20:59:28Z")
Curtis…Curtis LeMay…is that you, son? Good to see you again, Jackson! > [@](#): > > Meetings of the Joint Chiefs of Staff were alluded to by some as a three-ring circus. General Curtis E. LeMay, Air Force chief of staff, was characterized by one observer as always injecting himself into situations “like a rogue elephant barging out of a forest.” There are many stories of LeMay’s crudeness in dealing with his colleagues on the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He found the meetings dull, tiring, and unproductive. Petulant and often childish when he didn’t get his way, LeMay would light a cigar and blow smoke in the direction of anyone challenging his position. To show utter disgust, he would walk into the private Joint Chiefs of Staff toilet, leave the door open, urinate of break wind loudly, and flush the commode a number of aggravating times. He would then saunter calmly back into the meeting pretending that nothing had happened. When angry with individual staff members, he would resort to sarcasm; if that failed, he would direct his wrath to the entire staff. -_Dino Brugioni in “Eye to Eyeball”_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150.md?page=13)