# London Thanks the USAF for Their Support **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 12, 2005, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150 "2005-07-12T08:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/101 "2005-07-12T14:29:42Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Actually yes, I don’t now believe one word of US Intel or any Intel sourced back to it. Fool me once etc. And if you can’t see why the USAF acting for all the world like a bunch of gutless cowards instead of saying, yup, we’re right there, we ain’t going to be scared, isn’t an insult then you need a reality check. > > Did US servicemen stay clear of London in WW2 or did they join Londoners in defying Hitler? If they had, what sort of message do you think it would have sent? Thank God they at were not commanded by spineless assholes with no sense of proportion. > > You want us to support your damn fool war the bloody least the USAF can do is not undermine our response to terrorist attacks by saying its too dangerous to be in London and the least you can do is stop being an apologist for this screw-up. Well, I will tell you what, the Tagos Army doesn’t have to use US intel since it doesn’t ever believe it again. I, on the other hand, expect that the USAF would use its own intel and believe it. If you think that the USAF is being cowards because they were following protocol, then so be it. I won’t be able to convince you either way. The point wasn’t whether you think that it was a cowardly move or not. The point was that it is something that is ALWAYS done to ensure more lives aren’t lost unneeded. Don’t try to compare this move to WWII and then say that we are the ones without a sense of proportion. This bombing and WWII aren’t even close to the same thing. One was a conventional war while the other was a terrorist attack. Quit seeing some injustice where there isn’t any. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/102 "2005-07-12T14:31:30Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I’m just trying to get people to look at the situation objectively and not emotionally. Not always an easy thing for human beings to do. 🙂 Indeed its not. I had to sit here, and try very hard to look at things objectively. Yes there was a terrorist attack on London, so, the USAF implements SOP, as it always does. But, to your person on the street in London, who’s been through the attacks, and are, in many cases, struggling to return to a semblance of normality, it looks like the Americans are battening down the hatches, and effiectively insulting London’s ability to cope with things. Hence, the impassioned, annoyed reactions I think, not because it was an intentioned slap on the face, it just felt like that to a city, and a country trying to send a big ‘fuck you’ to the terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/103 "2005-07-12T14:33:17Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > If that’s the way that American military commanders are supposed to think, then in thelong term the attitude is very damaging, politically. It says, “We Americans are very important, and the rest of you, even our close allies like the British, are much less important.” That’s not the way to win friends in foreign countries. > > In my opinion, a base commander should first assess if there is an obvious immediate threat (and not the vague possibility of one), and if there isn’t one, get on the phone to the local emergency services and say, “Is there anything that we can do to help?” A few American paramedics helping on the scene in London would do a lot more for international relations than locking down the base until you look absurd. And if the local emergencyu services say they don’t need your help, then just say, “Well call on us any time that we can help!” I don’t have a cite for this, but I can’t imagine that the USAF would refuse to help London. Just because there was a general ban on London doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t send forces with special training in this type of situation. Although, like I said, I have no cite so maybe they didn’t send any help. It just seems kind of unlikely to me. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/104 "2005-07-12T14:37:35Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Oh yes, you’re coming at this from a neutral POV. No anti-US bias there, nosiree! > Oh and Dublin11? Drgnrdr07 just said that one should err on the side of caution if different intel data contradicts each other. Nowhere did I see him saying that U.S. intel data was better than British intel data. That’s a projection you’re making I’m afraid, it could just as easily be the other way around, in which case I think the appropriate response would be…to err on the side of caution. As this is the Pit I can safely say, ‘Fuck You’ , you arrogant waste of a wank, prick. The whole country woke up this morning to this as front page news and you damn well bet the country is taking it as both a fucking insult and another example of the USA first, everyone else last attitude to risk that sees Canadians on training and assorted wedding parties etc etc blown away just in case there’s the merest hint of a possibility an American might get hurt. And you fucking wonder why the world doesn’t buy your ‘we’re just here to help, butter wouldn’t melt’ attitude. You sir are just the sort of arrogant moron that gives American a bad name, incapable of seeing anything from any point of view but good ol’ USA superiorty. So, to cut short the debate. You’re right, we’re just arguing because we hate your freedoms :rolleyes: Jerk. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/105 "2005-07-12T14:40:02Z")
> [@drgnrdr07](#): > > Well, I will tell you what, the Tagos Army doesn’t have to use US intel since it doesn’t ever believe it again. I, on the other hand, expect that the USAF would use its own intel and believe it. If you think that the USAF is being cowards because they were following protocol, then so be it. I won’t be able to convince you either way. The point wasn’t whether you think that it was a cowardly move or not. The point was that it is something that is ALWAYS done to ensure more lives aren’t lost unneeded. Don’t try to compare this move to WWII and then say that we are the ones without a sense of proportion. This bombing and WWII aren’t even close to the same thing. One was a conventional war while the other was a terrorist attack. Quit seeing some injustice where there isn’t any. See above reply. ---
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/106 "2005-07-12T14:40:25Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > Indeed its not. I had to sit here, and try very hard to look at things objectively. Yes there was a terrorist attack on London, so, the USAF implements SOP, as it always does. But, to your person on the street in London, who’s been through the attacks, and are, in many cases, struggling to return to a semblance of normality, it looks like the Americans are battening down the hatches, and effiectively insulting London’s ability to cope with things. > > Hence, the impassioned, annoyed reactions I think, not because it was an intentioned slap on the face, it just felt like that to a city, and a country trying to send a big ‘fuck you’ to the terrorists. I can understand that is what it looks like. I might even feel the same way if the situations were reversed. The only reason I came in here to post was to show that this was SOP and not anything to be taken as an insult. I have no doubt in my mind that the intel London was giving was either on par or better than the USAF’s (how could it not be better) but I still think that this is perfectly reasonable protocol to follow to ensure that nobody else is lost carelessly. ---
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/107 "2005-07-12T14:45:46Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > See above reply. Right… we are the hysterical ones. I don’t know where you perceive this “America is better than everyone else” attitude from me. I am not trying to convey that reasoning in the least. All I am trying to say is that it is better to follow procedures set in place to help protect lives than to try and make some weird point that doesn’t need to be made. If people are taking this as something that isn’t normally done, they are wrong. Simple as that. This is what is always done in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/108 "2005-07-12T14:45:49Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > As this is the Pit I can safely say, ‘Fuck You’ , you arrogant waste of a wank, prick. > > The whole country woke up this morning to this as front page news and you damn well bet the country is taking it as both a fucking insult and another example of the USA first, everyone else last attitude to risk that sees Canadians on training and assorted wedding parties etc etc blown away just in case there’s the merest hint of a possibility an American might get hurt. And you fucking wonder why the world doesn’t buy your ‘we’re just here to help, butter wouldn’t melt’ attitude. > > You sir are just the sort of arrogant moron that gives American a bad name, incapable of seeing anything from any point of view but good ol’ USA superiorty. > > So, to cut short the debate. You’re right, we’re just arguing because we hate your freedoms :rolleyes: > > Jerk. Awww, geee, you don’t like me because I tend to think things out and not follow my jerking knee? Pity that. Fortunately I won’t consider you idiocy to be typical of the British people, I know far, far too many Londoners who are thoughtful and intelligent to miss the fact that you’re an aberration. Maybe in a day or two when your emotions are nor ruling your common sense (if such a thing even exists), you can come back and reread this thread and think “Hey, he wasn’t saying what I thought he was saying”. Perhaps not. Either way it makes me no nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/109 "2005-07-12T14:47:48Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The whole country woke up this morning to this as front page news and you damn well bet the country is taking it as both a fucking insult and another example of the USA first, everyone else last attitude… Well, _I_ am certainly taking it as nothing of the sort, and thus far have yet to find a Londoner with anything like the reaction you describe. You are welcome to your opinion (even your wild, off-the-deep-end, reactionary opinion), of course, but please don’t speak for all of us. I simply can’t imagine where you get the bile for this, when there’s, y’know, actual terrorists out there who actually killed people. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/110 "2005-07-12T15:08:44Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > Well, _I_ am certainly taking it as nothing of the sort, and thus far have yet to find a Londoner with anything like the reaction you describe. Well, I wouldn’t go as far as **tagos** , but most locals I have talked to, both on and off line, did get annoyed by the story. I am sure it wasn’t meant as a dis but unfortunately that’s the way it came across to many. And it is our revulsion and hatred of the terrorists that makes showing a united front even more important. Anyway, the order’s been revoked and the USAF are now pledging their unwavering support etc. so I, for one, am prepared to drop it. (By the way, this is the first Pit thread I’ve ever started. I thought it went well? ) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/111 "2005-07-12T15:26:06Z")
> [@Ithaka](#): > > Well, I wouldn’t go as far as **tagos** , but most locals I have talked to, both on and off line, did get annoyed by the story. > > I am sure it wasn’t meant as a dis but unfortunately that’s the way it came across to many. > > And it is our revulsion and hatred of the terrorists that makes showing a united front even more important. > > Anyway, the order’s been revoked and the USAF are now pledging their unwavering support etc. so I, for one, am prepared to drop it. > > (By the way, this is the first Pit thread I’ve ever started. I thought it went well? ) 😉 Agreed on all points! Just got to add that I wasn’t angry or offended, I completely understand that it’s SOP and that saving lives is important, I was just trying to point out that from the POV of the terrorist, they have scored more points. As the order has now been revoked, consider the whole matter dropped and forgotten. We can now get back to the real business at hand, which is to find, prosecute and convict those responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/112 "2005-07-12T15:29:48Z")
> [@Stryfe](#): > > We can now get back to the real business at hand, which is to find, prosecute and convict those responsible. [We’re on the case.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4674463.stm) ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/113 "2005-07-12T15:45:05Z")
Were the British forces confined to bases? Did the British AF get denied passes to London or whatever the equivalent is? Makes you think, if they were not. As for me, IMO, this is yet again crappy PR for the American military–I understand that it is SOP, but it looks terrible and does indeed send the wrong message to our allies, as well as the terrorists. So much for being a good guest in the home country. The whole thing smacks of “I’ll just hide out here while you deal with the bad guys, 'cause I wouldn’t want to get hurt or anything. Yeah, I know it’s your house I’m hiding in, but don’t ask me to show my face–it’s dangerous out there!”. Nimroddish decision and rightly denigrated. I am glad to see it rescinded-but the damage has been done. We are not so very popular over the Pond at present; this will not help things. I realize these folks are kinda old now, but this is London–you are dealing with a population that survived the Blitz. Whatever would have happened if the Home Guard etc had been confined to “bases” during that little ruckus? Hell, the King and Queen STAYED in London to provide support and morale to the troops, as well as the populace. It’s called having a backbone. I have lost respect for the AF over this one. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/114 "2005-07-12T16:04:07Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Were the British forces confined to bases? Did the British AF get denied passes to London or whatever the equivalent is? > > Makes you think, if they were not. Not really, it doesn’t; the British armed forces have a clear and obvious role to play in central London, following a terrorist strike. Guest forces of allied nations do not, and in the interim should concern themselves with their own safety and with not complicating matters for the British authorities, while offering help and waiting until specific requests are forthcoming. And even if some rapid USAF response _is_ called for, then it’s most effectively initiated if all its officers are accounted for and not meandering around the countryside, i.e. if they are told to return to base. PR disaster? Well, only in the eye of the beholder. Unless the USAF has a bunch of F-16s hanging around central London, I can only see that what they did made perfect sense; it ensured the safety and readiness of their troops, and positioned them in areas where they were more likely to be of actual help. Armies are supposed to ensure security, not make us all feel fluffy and pretend everything’s okay. If we really want to get worked up over this, well, fine, I guess, but I think those responsible for making this look like some sort of insult are those screaming blue murder like our friend **tagos** here, not the USAF personnel who took a rational operational decision. ---
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/115 "2005-07-12T16:05:29Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Were the British forces confined to bases? Did the British AF get denied passes to London or whatever the equivalent is? > > Makes you think, if they were not. > > As for me, IMO, this is yet again crappy PR for the American military–I understand that it is SOP, but it looks terrible and does indeed send the wrong message to our allies, as well as the terrorists. So much for being a good guest in the home country. The whole thing smacks of “I’ll just hide out here while you deal with the bad guys, 'cause I wouldn’t want to get hurt or anything. Yeah, I know it’s your house I’m hiding in, but don’t ask me to show my face–it’s dangerous out there!”. Nimroddish decision and rightly denigrated. I am glad to see it rescinded-but the damage has been done. We are not so very popular over the Pond at present; this will not help things. > > I realize these folks are kinda old now, but this is London–you are dealing with a population that survived the Blitz. Whatever would have happened if the Home Guard etc had been confined to “bases” during that little ruckus? Hell, the King and Queen STAYED in London to provide support and morale to the troops, as well as the populace. It’s called having a backbone. I have lost respect for the AF over this one. What were AF members supposed to do? I understand that they could have helped in the emergency aspect of it (which they might have, I am not sure), but what else should they have done? You are acting like this is an actual war and the Airman turned and ran back to base. This was a bombing. They were told to stay away from a place that was bombed until they could verify it was safe again. That is it. There isn’t going to be some invasion that needs to be repelled. The British police and investigators are taking care of everything from here. What would you have the USAF do? Should they conduct their own investigation? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/116 "2005-07-12T16:15:39Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I have lost respect for the AF over this one. Given what you’ve posted about the military in the past, I really don’t see how this is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/117 "2005-07-12T21:13:38Z")
Can we please, _please_ not confuse the U.S. Air Force with the U.S. military? They are two very different things. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/118 "2005-07-12T21:28:41Z")
> [@bluethree](#): > > Can we please, _please_ not confuse the U.S. Air Force with the U.S. military? They are two very different things. OK, fair enough, I will be careful. Serious question - what do take ‘US military’ to mean? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/119 "2005-07-12T21:31:12Z")
> [@drgnrdr07](#): > > What would you have the USAF do? Should they conduct their own investigation? I’d have them continue their lives _as normal_. Everybody else in the country did, despite it being demonstrated that every person was a potential target. So there’s a one-in-a-million chance of being blown up in Britain this year (hey, that’s statistically accurate). Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150/120 "2005-07-12T21:32:24Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Serious question - what do take ‘US military’ to mean? Make that ‘what do you take…’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/london-thanks-the-usaf-for-their-support/312150.md?page=7)