# Long and short vowels: i with an ee sound **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 21, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889 "2017-09-21T13:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/21 "2017-09-21T17:52:49Z")
Hmm, looks like “calm” vs “father” might not actually be part of the merger. Looks like the “ah” pronunciation is predominant, based on the dictionaries I checked, but my pronunciation [is listed as well](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/calm). To me, it’s the difference between /ɑː/ and /ɔ:/ using IPA symbols. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/22 "2017-09-21T18:01:45Z")
No, for me, cot and caught have completely different sounds. I’m in Texas BTW. Way back when alt.fan.cecil-adams was a thing, I sometimes hung out at alt.usage.english, so I had learned ASCII IPA, but I’ve mostly forgotten. So can you describe how you pronounce them differently? I see at the Merriam-Webster link you provided that one of the “calm” pronunciations had a variation of the letter “O”, so is that what you mean? That you say “calm” with what some people would describe as a kind of an “o” sound? I don’t believe I’ve ever heard that. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/23 "2017-09-21T18:05:15Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > No, for me, cot and caught have completely different sounds. I’m in Texas BTW. > > Way back when alt.fan.cecil-adams was a thing, I sometimes hung out at alt.usage.english, so I had learned ASCII IPA, but I’ve mostly forgotten. So can you describe how you pronounce them differently? I see at the Merriam-Webster link you provided that one of the “calm” pronunciations had a variation of the letter “O”, so is that what you mean? That you say “calm” with what some people would describe as a kind of an “o” sound? I don’t believe I’ve ever heard that. I’ve described it. It’s the difference between “cah(l)m” and “caw(l)m.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/24 "2017-09-21T18:12:39Z")
Or, [here’s a recording](http://www.pawinskiphotography.com/public/calm.m4a) with me saying it in my accent first, then with the sound that I use for “father” the second time around. I dropped the “l” in the second pronunciation–not sure if you normally pronounce it with the “l” or not there (some people do; some people don’t). I can re-record with the “l” pronunciation, if you’d like, but you can get a sense of the difference of the quality of vowel there. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/25 "2017-09-21T18:13:55Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Hmm, looks like “calm” vs “father” might not actually be part of the merger. Looks like the “ah” pronunciation is predominant, based on the dictionaries I checked, but my pronunciation [is listed as well](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/calm). > > To me, it’s the difference between /ɑː/ and /ɔ:/ using IPA symbols. My pronunciations were largely shaped by growing up in the south. fɑ∂ɚ kɑɔlm The “a” in “calm” for us (or for me at any rate) is the same sound as the “aw” sound in “saw”; it’s not ɔ by itself (as it would be up here in New York), it’s a diphthong, ɑɔ (and yeah, we pronounce the “l” in calm, that’s a southernism too) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/26 "2017-09-21T18:17:18Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > My pronunciations were largely shaped by growing up in the south. > > fɑ∂ɚ > > kɑɔlm > > The “a” in “calm” for us (or for me at any rate) is the same sound as the “aw” sound in “saw”; it’s not ɔ by itself (as it would be up here in New York), it’s a diphthong, ɑɔ > (and yeah, we pronounce the “l” in calm, that’s a southernism too) Not sure if that last part is a southernism or not. In my pronunciation, I do have a hint of an “l” in there, just like I do with words like “folk,” (which I only learned a few years ago was supposed to have a silent “l” in there.) ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/27 "2017-09-21T19:23:47Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > In my Great Lakes dialect, they are two distinct sounds. I imagine your dialect is probably part of the cot-caught merger. Do those two words sound the same to you? The majority of American dialects (about 60%) distinguish those two sounds. To us not in the merger, it’s the difference between an “ah” sound and an “aw” sound. But if you’re part of the merger, I imagine that description doesn’t mean anything to you. Where I live I hear people pronounce the two names Don and Dawn the same and it drives me absolutely crazy. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/28 "2017-09-21T20:46:49Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > The distinction between long and short vowel sounds is a useful one, or at least I found it so when I was a kid. For one thing, it helps to explain how [silent e](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kftn-X26-lg) works. It is utterly misleading in two ways: 1. “Long” vowels are not necessarily longer in duration than “short” vowels. Vowel length is influenced mainly by the immediate phonetic context (e.g. vowels tend to be longer when followed by a voiced consonant than when followed by an unvoiced. So the “short i” in “bid” is quite likely to be longer than the “long i” in “bite”). 2. “Long i” and “short i” have literally nothing in common phonetically other than that they are both vowels (that happen to be written with the same symbol). The same goes for all the other supposed “long” and “short” vowel pairs. So you get a rule that explains how “silent e” works but at the cost of embedding a lifelong misunderstanding of how the English vowel system works. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/29 "2017-09-21T22:13:54Z")
What “long i” and “short i” have in common is that they are both frequently denoted with the character \ in English orthography. Yes, this is a system whose names only are meaningful in the context of English orthography, but so it goes. Historically, “long i” and “short i” were more closely related phonetically (as /i/ vs. /I/, in IPA), but came to their present values via the Great English Vowel Shift. And so on for all the other “long” vs. “short” vowels in this particular system of analyzing English. So there actually is some (orthographic and historical) reason to it. It does have it use; the misleading part is just the particular names “long” and “short”. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/30 "2017-09-21T22:15:26Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > According to Wikipedia, [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), Miriam-Webster, and MacMillan, the final vowel is “ee”, although some of them give “eye” as an alternate pronunciation. It was the later I was taught. That was nearly 40 years ago, mind. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/31 "2017-09-21T23:00:39Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > In the [predominant pronunciation](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anno%20Domini), the final i in \*domini \*is pronounced like “ee”, not like “eye”. Whew. I was having flashes of retro-embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/32 "2017-09-22T12:32:04Z")
Studying Vowels is a big part of my vocal studies. It’s like I’ve returned to grade school. I have to think about how I pronounce words in the lyrics. It’s amazing how harsh and jarring words can sound when sung. It often requires focusing more on the Vowels instead of the consonants to get a pleasing tone. My voice teachers still refer to long and short vowel sounds. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/33 "2017-09-22T12:58:00Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > So you get a rule that explains how “silent e” works but at the cost of embedding a lifelong misunderstanding of how the English vowel system works. Right. In general, the problem here is that so many people assume that “vowels” are letters. They’re not. Vowels are a set of sounds that the human mouth makes within a particular language. Letters, on the other hand, are ways to represent those sounds in print. English has from 21 to 26 or so vowels, depending on how you define and classify them. The English writing system has only five letters to represent vowels (well, six, with Y). This is why we need to use the IPA if we’re want to accurately refer to vowels in print. When someone writes a phrase like “the A sound,” or “the long A sound,” or “the short O sound,” etc. it’s kind of pointless, because the letters A and O can represent more than just two sounds each, (because of the fossilized history of English orthography). Letter don’t intrinsically make sounds, and neither do pixels on a screen. _ **ALL** _ LETTERS ARE SILENT. It’s the human mouth that produces vowels, not letters or pixels. So it’s stupid to say, “long A,” “short O,” etc. That is just a crude tool for teaching _reading_, (NOT PRONUNCIATION), to children who already can speak English. If you want to write about pronunciation, USE THE IPA. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/34 "2017-09-22T13:01:42Z")
And I’ll add that using double letter, such as EE in the OP, doesn’t help the situation. It just perpetuates the problem. Use the IPA. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/35 "2017-09-22T13:38:50Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > And I’ll add that using double letter, such as EE in the OP, doesn’t help the situation. It just perpetuates the problem. I was aware of that even as I wrote it. Thanks for your post, it makes way more sense when you put it like that. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/36 "2017-09-22T14:39:20Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > … > > For example, I just had occasion to read something about Stan and Jan Berenstain. I imagine that for most of you, Stan and Jan rhyme. But not for me. And not for them either since they, like me, grew up in West Philadelphia. But how did I even know that the two a’s were different? I guess because the a in Stanley is different from the one in Janet. But my internal grammar knows things I don’t know. This is interesting. I’ve never heard of that regoinalism. Not that I doubt you, just that I’m surprised. Can you explain how the two “a” sounds differ? In my native US west coast then later Midwestern dialect they’re identical. I \*might \*pronounce Stan(ley) so the “a” sound is slightly elongated in duration versus the one in Jan(et), but the sound itself seems to me to be otherwise identical. And any elongation is very, very subtle. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/37 "2017-09-22T14:50:43Z")
Yeah, I’m interested, too. “Stan” and “Jan” in my dialect are the same, as well. I can’t quite figure what the difference is. However, it looks like [Wikipedia has a clue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_English): > [@](#): > > As in New York City English and Baltimore English, historical “short a” has split into two phonemes: lax /æ/ (as in bat) and tense /eə/ (as in bath). Their distribution in Philadelphia along with Baltimore, however, is different from that of New York City: for instance, the words mad (tense) and sad (lax) do not rhyme in Philadelphia or Baltimore, but do for New York City and most other English dialects. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/38 "2017-09-22T15:06:16Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > In the [predominant pronunciation](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anno%20Domini), the final i in \*domini \*is pronounced like “ee”, not like “eye”. Not in British English. Quartz is British. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/39 "2017-09-22T15:13:06Z")
ETA: @ **pulykamell**. Wow. Thank you. At first I was thinking the labels lax & tense were backwards. “Bat” being pronounced the way most Americans would, and “bath” being pronounced “baaahth” like Thurston Howell or a Brit might say. But that’s wrong. Then I thought of the feature of NYC accents that bugs me the most. The harsh angry-seeming way they pronounce several vowels, notably the short-ish “a” sound that’s drawn out in time and emphasized and buzzy and … I don’t know what else. Tense is how that sounds to me. Tense and course and angry and off-putting. Which I recognize is simply ignorant prejudice on my part. It’s just a vowel, an arbitrary noise we make to communicate. But still it grates. I could readily imagine someone pronouncing Stan(ley) the tense way and Jan(et) the lax way. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889/40 "2017-09-23T22:08:46Z")
The issue with the Latinate pronuciation of “i” is that the British pronunciation of Latin took a trip through the Great Vowel Shift. It wasn’t until sometime in the middle of the last Century that the British woke up and realized that they were pronouncing it differently than the rest of the world - it may have been partly an issue of British supremacy in the classical education era that kept them pronouncing Latin words as though they were English words because no one was going to tell them otherwise. Some of those pronunciations are still with us, like “alumni” or fake-latin “cacti”, as well as legal phrases that were taken from England during the period of common rule. I can’t think of any off the top of my head, but there’s a few that annoy me in how they don’t conform with the standard pronunciation of Classical Latin now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-and-short-vowels-i-with-an-ee-sound/796889.md?page=1)