# Long: If conservatives could think... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2009, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233 "2009-02-03T09:25:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/81 "2009-02-03T18:45:16Z")
duplicate. God, is this board slow today. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/82 "2009-02-03T18:50:49Z")
[The Mendacity Index](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0309.mendacity-experts.html). Some Reagan examples: > [@](#): > > After opining in August 1980 that “trees cause more pollution than automobiles do,” Reagan arrived at a campaign rally to find a tree decorated with this sign: “Chop me down before I kill again.” > > The Reagan administration introduced the 1981 Economic Recovery Act by claiming that it would cut taxes by 30 percent, increase defense spending by three-quarters of a trillion dollars, and achieve a balanced budget within three years. Budget director David Stockman admitted in November of 1981 that, “None of us really understands what’s going on with all these numbers” and that supply-side economics “was always a Trojan horse to bring down the top rate.” > > “In England, if a criminal carried a gun, even though he didn’t use it, he was tried for first-degree murder and hung if he was found guilty,” Ronald Reagan claimed in April 1982. When informed that the story was “just not true,” White House spokesman Larry Speakes said, “ **Well, it’s a good story, though. It made the point, didn’t it?** ” Reagan repeated the story again on March 21, 1986 during an interview with The New York Times. > > In November 1983, Reagan told visiting Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir that he had served as a photographer in a U.S. Army unit assigned to film Nazi death camps. He repeated the story to Simon Wiesenthal the following February. Reagan never visited or filmed a concentration camp; he spent World War II in Hollywood, making training films with the First Motion Picture Unit of the Army Air Corps. > > “ **We did not–repeat, did not–trade weapons or anything else for hostages, nor will we** ,” Reagan proclaimed in November 1986. Four months later, on March 4, 1987, Reagan admitted in a televised national address, “A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. **My heart and my best intentions still tell me that’s true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not**.” > > Over a period of about five years, Reagan told the story of the “Chicago welfare queen” who had 80 names, 30 addresses, 12 Social Security cards, and collected benefits for “four nonexisting deceased husbands,” bilking the government out of “over $150,000.” The real welfare recipient to whom Reagan referred was actually convicted for using two different aliases to collect $8,000. Reagan continued to use his version of the story even after the press pointed out the actual facts of the case to him. Some choice quotes bolded. That doesn’t even include his repeated claims to want to balance the budget, while every year submitting a request with a deeper deficit, ultimately tripling the national debt. It is entirely fair to assess him overall as simply not being concerned with the world of fact. “He always lied” is more true than not. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/83 "2009-02-03T18:56:09Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Not quite. Republicans as a whole are more educated. Higher percentages of all degrees up to and including masters. [You sure about that?](http://www.sj-r.com/opinions/x2143283624/Richard-Reeves-Republicans-earning-stupid-party-title) > [@](#): > > Barack Obama won college graduates by two points, a group that George Bush won by six points four years ago. He won voters with postgraduate degrees by 18 points. And he won voters with a household income of more than $200,000 — many of whom will get thumped by his tax increases — by six points. John McCain did best among uneducated voters in Appalachia and the South. And > [@](#): > > “The Republicans lost the battle of ideas even more comprehensively than they lost the battle for educated votes, marching into the election armed with nothing more than slogans. Energy? Just drill, baby, drill. Global warming? Crack a joke about Ozone Al. … During the primary debates, three out of 10 Republican candidates admitted that they did not believe in evolution,” wrote the Economist. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/84 "2009-02-03T18:57:12Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The Soviet Union never invaded any countries without being invited first > > Unfortunately, I am not conversant enough with military history to address this statement. Apparently, this is one of those statements that is technically but not substantively true (i.e. it depends upon an absurdly broad definition of “invited” that encompasses any two-bit local Communist who is given a place in the post-invasion regime). ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/85 "2009-02-03T19:09:23Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > I’m a conservative, and I’d be happy to take on any of the liberals on this board in any test of abstract logical reasoning that can be devised. Would you like a game of chess? P.S. I don’t agree with the OP, but your idea deserves refuting. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/86 "2009-02-03T19:13:58Z")
Given the large number of idiots in this country, you are obviously going to find both conservative and liberal ones. I’m more interested in high ranking idiots. Exhibit A: Tom McClintock, conservative Republican from California, was on Forum last week, and said that the stimulus plan was guaranteed to fail because money for infrastructure had to be taken directly from other people, thus offering no net stimulus. An economist, who was on right after, mentioned (not in response to a question) that this was not quite true thanks to borrowing. So, we have an economic illiterate helping to make decisions. Exhibit B: Remember how many conservative candidates for the Republican presidential nomination raised their hands about not accepting evolution. QE fuckin’ D. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/87 "2009-02-03T19:18:34Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > **Bricker** , while those examples are plausible, and certainly believable, it must be noted that they’re still hypotheticals, while the ones presented in the OP (barring evidence to the contrary) are actual conversations. No. All of those conversations were ones I actually participated in. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/88 "2009-02-03T19:24:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. All of those conversations were ones I actually participated in. As you say. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/89 "2009-02-03T19:27:54Z")
I wonder if the other person involved would quote each conversation in quite the same way **Bricker** does? ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/90 "2009-02-03T19:35:34Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > You are. 🙂 > > The final quote I referenced in my previous post \*was \ ***Hilarity N. Suze** ’s. . It was his sole contribution to the conversation in question. (Exhibit A in the OP) Ah. In that case I don’t see how Hilarity N. Suze’s contribution was necessary to create a debate. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/91 "2009-02-03T19:37:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > ME: The Left isn’t always the tolerant side – there was a famous case in which a university disciplined a janitor for reading a book about the KKK during his lunch break. [Except that they didn’t.](http://a.abcnews.com/US/wireStory?id=5373849) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/92 "2009-02-03T19:40:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I wonder if the other person involved would quote each conversation in quite the same way **Bricker** does? Probably not. The same thing likely applies to the conversations described in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/93 "2009-02-03T19:43:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I wonder if the other person involved would quote each conversation in quite the same way **Bricker** does? Do you wonder the same thing about the other person involved in the OP’s conversations? If so, funny you didn’t mention it. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/94 "2009-02-03T19:43:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Except that they didn’t.](http://a.abcnews.com/US/wireStory?id=5373849) :rolleyes: I think it’s a better story **Bricker** ’s way. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/95 "2009-02-03T19:45:35Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Apparently, this is one of those statements that is technically but not substantively true (i.e. it depends upon an absurdly broad definition of “invited” that encompasses any two-bit local Communist who is given a place in the post-invasion regime). Actually, my counter-example was Poland in September 1939, and Estonia in 1940. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/96 "2009-02-03T19:49:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Do you wonder the same thing about the other person involved in the OP’s conversations? If so, funny you didn’t mention it. Still waiting for your “examples”, troll. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/97 "2009-02-03T19:50:36Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I think it’s a better story **Bricker** ’s way. At the time I had the conversation, the school had disciplined the worker but the apology had not yet issued. So, yes, the school ultimately reversed itself (to their credit) but the conversation was with a neighbor of mine who defended the school’s initial (wrong) position. It was offered not so show what the school ultimately did, but to show this particular neighbor, a liberal, had a problem with thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/98 "2009-02-03T19:51:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, my counter-example was Poland in September 1939, and Estonia in 1940. > > Regards, > Shodan How about Hungary 1956? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/99 "2009-02-03T19:52:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Except that they didn’t.](http://a.abcnews.com/US/wireStory?id=5373849) :rolleyes: Your cite only proves his point, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233/100 "2009-02-03T19:52:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At the time I had the conversation, the school had disciplined the worker Except that they didn’t. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-if-conservatives-could-think/484233.md?page=6)