# long leftist labor lecture **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 16, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826 "2003-10-16T18:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/61 "2003-10-18T04:11:46Z")
Then read the third one, gatorguy, it goes into the story in great detail. Jeebus, this isn’t reading without comprehension on your part, it’s failure to read at all. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/62 "2003-10-18T13:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Evil Captor_ > Oh, yeah, in corporate fascism the state is the tool of the corporations, so state power IS corporate power. No inconsistency at all there, after all. Well, I guess it isn’t inconsistent when you make up definitions for things. Corporations don’t control the government. You can say that all you want, but I’d like to hear a cogent defense of that position. I don’t want to hear gripes about the influence they have. I want you to show _control_ in a meaningful sense. If you say fascism, you need to show a level of control similar to what fascist governments have held over the economy. You are simply throwing out some terms with no real understanding of what they mean. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/63 "2003-10-18T13:57:45Z")
Like the Amercian work force; organized labor is in transition. My union (The international) represents not only machinists and pipefitters and crane operators but many professional workers, to include accountants, administrative law judges, engineers etc. Organizing is going on nation wide with the changing workforce. It remains to be seen how bad things will have to get to force change in current U.S. business practices but I expect to see radical change within 20 years. Crossing a picket line is akin to spitting on your neighbor’s baby - it is a disgusting affront to your own humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/64 "2003-10-18T14:24:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > But I’m made suspicious of it because, although it seems to offer good reason for supposing that the hammer cost less than $400, it admits the hammer was still overpriced and refuses to even offer a guesstimate of what its actual cost was, saying there was “no way to know” what an individual hammer cost under that contract. In short, I smell bullshit there. And this debunking story does confirm the general fact that DoD contracts are often ridiculously overpriced for a variety of reasons. > > Glad to be of help. Before I go into detail, I’d like to ask what your educational and/or professional contract accounting experience is. For example, do you understand the equal allocation pricing method described in your third cite, and are you familiar with the general principles of an IDIQ contract? Do you know the difference between cost-plus-fixed-fee and time-and-materials? I ask because if you do, I’ll be VERY interested in why you smell bullshit. If you don’t, I’m pretty sure that your whiff of fecal matter is not based on a true understanding of the situation. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/65 "2003-10-18T16:11:57Z")
From personal experience whilst in the Army, I can state that out supply system paid more than $10 for a drill bit. A 1/8" **drill bit**. That’s right, one-eighth of an inch. The same bit you can buy at ANY hardware store for a few cents. The explanation? Who the hell knows. Even our Battalion Maintenance Officer couldn’t explain it. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/66 "2003-10-18T16:35:56Z")
Even Sven, have you considered the military? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/67 "2003-10-18T16:43:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Xploder \* > From personal experience whilst in the Army, I can state that out supply system paid more than $10 for a drill bit. A 1/8" **drill bit**. That’s right, one-eighth of an inch. The same bit you can buy at ANY hardware store for a few cents. > > The explanation? Who the hell knows. Even our Battalion Maintenance Officer couldn’t explain it. Before I go into detailed explanation, I’d like to ask what your educational and/or professional contract accounting experience is. For example, do you understand the equal allocation pricing method described in the third cite above, and are you familiar with the general principles of an IDIQ contract? Do you know the difference between cost-plus-fixed-fee and time-and-materials? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/68 "2003-10-18T16:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by county \* > \*\*Crossing a picket line is akin to spitting on your neighbor’s baby - it is a disgusting affront to your own humanity. \*\* Bullshit it is. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > \*\*Even Sven, have you considered the military? \*\* Psst…she thinks the military is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/69 "2003-10-18T17:06:39Z")
If I were an employer, I’d think twice about hiring anyone who believes that all employers are evil, and that employees have the right to seize my property in violation of the law. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/70 "2003-10-18T17:28:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*Before I go into detail, I’d like to ask what your educational and/or professional contract accounting experience is. For example, do you understand the equal allocation pricing method described in your third cite, and are you familiar with the general principles of an IDIQ contract? Do you know the difference between cost-plus-fixed-fee and time-and-materials? > > I ask because if you do, I’ll be VERY interested in why you smell bullshit. If you don’t, I’m pretty sure that your whiff of fecal matter is not based on a true understanding of the situation. > > - Rick \*\* I call argumentum ad hominem. “I have all this specialist knowledge which you don’t have, and you’ll just have to take my word for it and agree with me on this one.” No, I don’t. If you want to argue with me, you have to do it in terms I can understand. If you want to claim specialist knowledge, etc. If you want to say, “this $700 hammer didn’t really cost $700” it is incumbent upon YOU to explain why not, in clear and understandable terms. If you want to say it’s such a complex accounting system that it can’t be explained clearly in less than 5,000 words, you can hardly object if people say “bullshit.” People very often waffle and whiffle in this way, one of the nice things about the SDMB is, they don’t get away with it. My experience with accounting – I can’t balance a checkbook. My experience with BS – I was online before the Web existed. Nuff said? ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/71 "2003-10-18T18:01:06Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* \*\*Bullshit it is. People like you are what labor has axe handles for - you know to explain our position in language even you can understand. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/72 "2003-10-18T18:04:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by county \* > \*\*People like you are what labor has axe handles for - you know to explain our position in language even you can understand. \*\* Wha --? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/73 "2003-10-18T18:33:42Z")
Apparently, county believes that people disagreeing with the union position should be beaten with axe handles. I WAS going to ask him why he thinks things are bad, but what’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/74 "2003-10-18T18:49:38Z")
Oh. Nice to know he’s so tolerant of other people’s opinions. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/75 "2003-10-18T18:54:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > I call argumentum ad hominem. “I have all this specialist knowledge which you don’t have, and you’ll just have to take my word for it and agree with me on this one.” Actually, that’s an example of _argumentum ad verecundiam_, an appeal to authority - not argumentum ad hominem, in which the person is attacked instead of the argument. > [@](#): > > No, I don’t. If you want to argue with me, you have to do it in terms I can understand. If you want to claim specialist knowledge, etc. > > If you want to say, “this $700 hammer didn’t really cost $700” it is incumbent upon YOU to explain why not, in clear and understandable terms. If you want to say it’s such a complex accounting system that it can’t be explained clearly in less than 5,000 words, you can hardly object if people say “bullshit.” People very often waffle and whiffle in this way, one of the nice things about the SDMB is, they don’t get away with it. I agree. That’s why I said, “Before I go into detail…” I didn’t want to type out 5,000 words explaining IDIQ contracts only to have you say, “Hey, I’m a procurement specialist - I _know_ all that.” I absolutely accept it’s incumbent to explain things - or risk that people, not understanding them, may call bullshit. There are limits – if the subject is complex, it may be that it simply can’t be explained easily. I think this subject, while complex, can be distilled relatively easily. The subjects of the equal allocation method and IDIQ (Indefinite Delivery, Indefinite Quantity): I’m Bricker Industries. I want to enter into a contract with you to sell you perimeter security systems. These systems include motion detectors, infrared monitors, steel gates, locks, keys, and laser-guided paintball guns. You’ve asked that I keep these systems stocked and ready to sell you, but you won’t guarantee me that you’re going to buy any particular number of them. You want to have the flexibility to buy 100, 1000, 10,000, or 1. Or none at all. I have to decide how I’m going to price these systems. I can’t just make up a price. (Well, I could, but I wouldn’t last long in business if I did - my price has to be such that I’m making money on the item.) I have to be ready to sell you the maximum number, but also ready for you to buy just a few. One way to do this pricing is to determine how much it costs me to make or acquire the item. But I can’t just sell it to you at that cost - right? If I did, I’d be losing money, because there’s be no extra money from our transaction to pay for my salary, my secretary’s salary, the salaries of the warehouse operators that manage the supply of all the items, etc. I also have to lease a warehouse (or depreciate my owned warehouse) to the extent it’s being used to store the motion detectors and monitors you might buy. To that base price, then, I have to add the overhead percentage, and a M&H (material and handing) charge. Even then, I’m just breaking even. So to that revised figure, I have to add my fee - the profit I’m making for my shareholders. Now I have a price for my items - my monitors, motion detectors, steel gates, locks, and so forth. Sometimes you may not want to buy a whole motion detector. You have asked me to give you the option of buying just the plastic base, or just the circuit board, at one time, to allow you to install all of one part before doing all of the next part. I suppose I could figure the individual prices out for each of those parts, based on the same method discussed above. But that method starts to get cumbersome when we’re talking about items that run under, say, $500. It’s easier for me to just say that there are ten parts to a motion detector, and since each motion detector costs $2000, each part costs $200. That’s a ridiculously unfair price for the plastic base, to be sure - but it’s also ridiculously underpriced for the circuit board. I accept my “loss” on the circuit board because my “gain” for the plastic base evens it out, and I know that in the end, you’ll buy the same number of each, since you can’t get a working detector without both parts. That’s the equal allocation method. Now - what about the fact that you’ve asked me to be ready to sell you 10,000, but you won’t promise me that you’ll buy 10,000? If I stock all 10,000, then you don’t buy any, I’m screwed. I’m unwilling to take that risk. But if I insist that you agree to buy a minimum number, you’ll just stop contracting with me and enter into an agreement with someone who will accept those terms. So to hedge my bets, I have to increase the price of my components to cover my potential losses. That way, if I stock 10,000 and you only buy 5000, I’m hurt but not dead. If I edge my pricing up too high, someone else will come along and undercut me. If I put it too low, I can put myself out of business buying and stocking items you never buy. In short, it’s wrong to compare the price of items on government contracts to the price of items at the hardware store. If the hardware store is out of batteries, you have no recourse against them. You can’t sue them for failing to stock enough batteries. The government is paying not just for items, but for the guarantee of being able to buy an indefinite quantity of the items at any time they please. Does this make sense so far? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/76 "2003-10-18T19:03:03Z")
As someone already said: Corporations would get too evil if unions were outlawed. Unions would get too evil if crossing picket lines was outlawed. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/77 "2003-10-18T19:20:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > **I agree. That’s why I said, “Before I go into detail…” I didn’t want to type out 5,000 words explaining IDIQ contracts only to have you say, "Hey, I’m a procurement specialist - I _know_ all that."** [hijack] I think, as a general rule, it’s a good idea to explain the details regardless of whether or not your opponent is a knowledgeable specialist, if for no other reason than there are plenty of _other_ folks reading the thread who aren’t specialists who might learn a thing or two from your explanation. Y’know, fighting ignorance and all that… [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/78 "2003-10-18T19:23:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > [hijack] > I think, as a general rule, it’s a good idea to explain the details regardless of whether or not your opponent is a knowledgeable specialist, if for no other reason than there are plenty of _other_ folks reading the thread who aren’t specialists who might learn a thing or two from your explanation. Y’know, fighting ignorance and all that… > [/hijack] Good point. If this were GD or GQ, I would have. Given the actual environs, I thought testing the water was a good idea, because, notwithstanding the vlaue of educating the reader, if my rebuttal is directed to someone who simply wanted to rant, it’s too much work for me. Since **EC** ’s response seemed to me to contain genuine interest in the subject, I felt as though I had a green light. But you’re right. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/79 "2003-10-18T22:01:38Z")
I wonder what happened to the OP? ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826/80 "2003-10-18T22:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > \*\*Oh. > > Nice to know he’s so tolerant of other people’s opinions. :rolleyes: \*\* Crossing a picket line is quite a bit more than expressing an opinion. I would expect people bright enough to turn on a computer to understand that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-leftist-labor-lecture/207826.md?page=5)