# Long-Term Goals to Keep America Competitive **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512 "2011-04-15T17:11:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/41 "2011-04-19T15:39:03Z")
Offer citizenship (or at least a green card and similar status on a path to citizenship) to any immigrant, legal or otherwise, who can show a work history of ten years and/or a degree from an accredited American university and/or a certificate from an accredited trade school. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/42 "2011-04-19T16:11:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Offer citizenship (or at least a green card and similar status on a path to citizenship) to any immigrant, legal or otherwise, who can show a work history of ten years and/or a degree from an accredited American university and/or a certificate from an accredited trade school. Why? So the unemployment rate can go even higher? You need to create jobs first. You do that by creating incentives for businesses to make more investments in the US, thereby creating more jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/43 "2011-04-19T16:45:02Z")
And gathering smart and determined people from around the world contradicts this how, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/44 "2011-04-19T17:44:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And gathering smart and determined people from around the world contradicts this how, exactly? There’s no reason these smart and determined people you describe would want to come here in the mass numbers you expect, without a place to work. The problem of business incentives has to be fixed **first**. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/45 "2011-04-19T17:58:13Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > There’s no reason these smart and determined people you describe would want to come here in the mass numbers you expect, without a place to work. The problem of business incentives has to be fixed **first**. Aren’t people already going to the U.S. for education and employment in large numbers? I’m suggesting you make it easier for the ones who show sufficient grit and smarts to stick around. I don’t see how this poses the problem you describe, nor why that problem must be fixed “first”. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/46 "2011-04-19T18:32:15Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > 1. Are you sure both of those cites are in current US dollars? > > 2. Do you realize that US$1 in Topeka, Kansas is not the same thing as US$1 in Addis Ababa? The figures are from wikipedia and are in current US dollars. They might be mistaken as they differ quite alot from New Zealand’s government. New Zealand’s government figures show the average household in America is only 10% richer. However the households are slightly bigger than in America. GDP per capita which is reported in more places but is an inferior measure of the average than the median has the average American about 40% wealthier. These are all PPP adjusted figures. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/47 "2011-04-20T03:09:47Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > According to this it is about $1000-1400 NZ dollars a week, so roughly 50k USD a year. > > [http://www.emigratenz.org/new-zealand-incomes.html](http://www.emigratenz.org/new-zealand-incomes.html) > > Thats right. On issues like Married with Children or New Zealand currency, I am the master. I don’t want to go too OT, this is about production in America after all. The figures you give are accurate for New Zealand but so far as I know, our tax rates are higher than the USA. However, we also have a tax rebate system for families which skews the actual dollars per week that is available in a household. I’d guess that our standards of living are quite similar particularly if quality of life is included. The Australians are slightly better off than us and on a par with the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/48 "2011-04-20T03:21:47Z")
Back ontopic, every OECD country faces the same conundrum. We enjoy high standards of living and high wages. Much of what we consume is manufactured in low-wage countries which gives jobs to those people and increases their own quality of life. I don’t imagine any of us would deny an Indian/Chinese/African the chance to improve their lives when we are so fortunate by comparison. Where we have an advantage is at the high end. Good education, innovation, imagination, advanced technology. Switzerland is land-locked and a tiny nation, yet they thrive. Scandanavia has ice and fjiords - and not much else. Yet they also thrive. Ok, Norway has oil too. The point is, being at the top of the heap does not automatically doom the USA or other nations to a downward plunge to average. Its much more likely other nations will slowly rise to similar standards. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/49 "2011-04-20T03:24:12Z")
Back ontopic, every OECD country faces the same conundrum. We enjoy high standards of living and high wages. Much of what we consume is manufactured in low-wage countries which gives jobs to those people and increases their own quality of life. I don’t imagine any of us would deny an Indian/Chinese/African the chance to improve their lives when we are so fortunate by comparison. Where we have an advantage is at the high end. Good education, innovation, imagination, advanced technology. Switzerland is land-locked and a tiny nation, yet they thrive. Scandanavia has ice and fjiords - and not much else. Yet they also thrive. Ok, Norway has oil too. The point is, being at the top of the heap does not automatically doom the USA or other nations to a downward plunge to average. Its much more likely other nations will slowly rise to similar standards. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/50 "2011-04-20T13:47:59Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Back ontopic, every OECD country faces the same conundrum. We enjoy high standards of living and high wages. Much of what we consume is manufactured in low-wage countries which gives jobs to those people and increases their own quality of life. I don’t imagine any of us would deny an Indian/Chinese/African the chance to improve their lives when we are so fortunate by comparison. > > Where we have an advantage is at the high end. Good education, innovation, imagination, advanced technology. Switzerland is land-locked and a tiny nation, yet they thrive. Scandanavia has ice and fjiords - and not much else. Yet they also thrive. Ok, Norway has oil too. > > The point is, being at the top of the heap does not automatically doom the USA or other nations to a downward plunge to average. Its much more likely other nations will slowly rise to similar standards. High end services can be outsourced too. There are 2.4 billion Chinese and Indians, and there are tons of lawyers, scientists, IT professionals, etc there who can do the work of a worker in an OECD nation for a fraction of the cost. So I really don’t know what advantage you get from a wealthy nation. Both basic manufacturing and more advanced services can be done cheaper overseas. China has experienced massive gains in their R&D budget and number of patents filed in the last 15 years. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/51 "2011-04-20T18:45:33Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Can I suggest that your quality of life is much more important than trying to compete. That’s something people living in loser countries say.😃 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/52 "2011-04-20T18:54:19Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > High end services can be outsourced too. There are 2.4 billion Chinese and Indians, and there are tons of lawyers, scientists, IT professionals, etc there who can do the work of a worker in an OECD nation for a fraction of the cost. > > So I really don’t know what advantage you get from a wealthy nation. Both basic manufacturing and more advanced services can be done cheaper overseas. > > China has experienced massive gains in their R&D budget and number of patents filed in the last 15 years. Typically you can only really outsource repetetive, mundane tasks. For example, document reviews in the case of lawyers or building specific, very well defined modules of code for IT professionals. But there are challenges in terms of management and quality control with outsourcing some of these tasks. What people don’t really seem to understand is that outsourcing can also create high level jobs. It allows small companies to do more with less which means it costs less for some guy with an idea to implement it. Think of it as a giant machine that creates whatever you can think of at a fraction of the cost. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512/53 "2011-04-20T19:30:40Z")
> [@](#): > > What people don’t really seem to understand is that outsourcing can also create high level jobs. It allows small companies to do more with less which means it costs less for some guy with an idea to implement it. Think of it as a giant machine that creates whatever you can think of at a fraction of the cost. But then there’s absolutely no reason that some person in the country the manufacturing is being outsourced to couldn’t do all this high-level work as well. with lower overhead, he could produce and sell the item cheaper than someone in the US could. Even if this were not the case, for the relatively few top-management people who have this opportunity, all those designers, engineers, etc. which outnumber them will _not_ get jobs in the US, if it’s all outsourced. It seems to me that outsourcing, fully exploited, will still give you a net job loss. I’m not offering a solution here-- I just want to point out the obvious flaw in **msmith537** ’s argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-goals-to-keep-america-competitive/578512.md?page=2)