# Long-term mouth-to-mouth (or, could Socrates have been saved?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 12, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-mouth-to-mouth-or-could-socrates-have-been-saved/765748 "2016-09-12T07:57:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-mouth-to-mouth-or-could-socrates-have-been-saved/765748/1 "2016-09-12T07:57:49Z")
The Athenian philosopher Socrates is famous (among other things) for his manner of death: he was executed by being made to drink a concoction of poison hemlock. Let’s say that a group of modern doctors travelled back in time to the execution, carrying no modern technology but retaining their medical knowledge. Assuming they convinced the Athenian officials to hand over Socrates to them after he stopped breathing, would they be able to revive him? According to [Wikipedia’s article on poison hemlock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conium_maculatum), the active ingredient is coniine: > [@](#): > > Coniine has a chemical structure and pharmacological properties similar to nicotine, and disrupts the workings of the central nervous system through action on nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. In high enough concentrations, coniine can be dangerous to humans and livestock. Due to high potency, the ingestion of seemingly small doses can easily result in respiratory collapse and death. Coniine causes death by blocking the neuromuscular junction in a manner similar to curare; this results in an ascending muscular paralysis with eventual paralysis of the respiratory muscles which results in death due to lack of oxygen to the heart and brain. **Death can be prevented by artificial ventilation until the effects have worn off 48–72 hours later.** For an adult, the ingestion of more than 100 mg (0.1 gram) of coniine (about six to eight fresh leaves, or a smaller dose of the seeds or root) may be fatal. I’m particularly interested in the claim (which I’ve set in bold above) that artificial ventilation can be used as an antidote of sorts. Would this include mouth-to-mouth resuscitation? I’m basically wondering whether there are any risks associated with someone receiving mouth-to-mouth for two or three days straight. I know that nowadays machines can keep people breathing indefinitely, though I imagine they are more sophisticated and perhaps less erratic and invasive than a team of humans performing mouth-to-mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-mouth-to-mouth-or-could-socrates-have-been-saved/765748/2 "2016-09-12T12:28:02Z")
How many doctors are there on this team? Because rescue breathing is exhausting work, and unless they’ve got a _lot_ of shifts going, there’s no way they’re going to last 48 hours straight. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-mouth-to-mouth-or-could-socrates-have-been-saved/765748/3 "2016-09-12T13:42:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How many doctors are there on this team? Because rescue breathing is exhausting work, and unless they’ve got a _lot_ of shifts going, there’s no way they’re going to last 48 hours straight. As many as necessary. My question is about the endurance of the patient, not of the caregivers. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-mouth-to-mouth-or-could-socrates-have-been-saved/765748/4 "2016-09-12T15:37:11Z")
I was trying to find the longest successful CPR session and I’ve found records of 6-8 hours. Since the CPR recommendations now are just for chest compressions without rescue breathing this doesn’t seem to match the recommendations for keeping the hemlock victim on a ventilator. My uneducated guess is that after 2-3 days of chest compressions you would have broken enough ribs that the patient would likely bleed out from lacerations. CPR mainly works by keeping the heart pumping and not forcing air into the lungs. I don’t think this would work based on the paralyzing effects of the hemlock. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-mouth-to-mouth-or-could-socrates-have-been-saved/765748/5 "2016-09-12T15:45:56Z")
CPR and rescue breathing are not the same thing. Supposedly, hemlock poisoning is a situation where artificial ventilation (which rescue breathing is one form of) would be useful, without chest compressions being necessary. Now, of course, it’s also possible that the premise is itself false, and that artificial respiration without artificial circulation is useless for a hemlock victim, but I’m not in a position to judge that. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-mouth-to-mouth-or-could-socrates-have-been-saved/765748/6 "2016-09-12T16:41:40Z")
According to the Wikipedia article: > [@Wikipedia on poison hemlock](#): > > Death can be prevented by artificial ventilation until the effects have worn off 48–72 hours later. Artificial respiration is artificial respiration. It doesn’t matter what is stuffing air into the patient’s lungs, whether it’s a machine or another human being. If it’s another human being, then the air is slightly deoxygenated, but still rich enough to sustain life. If a mechanical ventilator can keep a person alive for days, then a team of stubborn-ass rescue breathers ought to be able to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-mouth-to-mouth-or-could-socrates-have-been-saved/765748/7 "2016-09-12T17:06:53Z")
This reminds me of a real life version of this scenario. Guy gets bit by poisonous snake. KNOWS what is about to happen. Team performs 26 hours of MTM before ultimately failing. [Outside Magazine story](https://www.outsideonline.com/1917911/bit) ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/long-term-mouth-to-mouth-or-could-socrates-have-been-saved/765748/8 "2016-09-12T21:19:30Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Artificial respiration is artificial respiration. I wouldn’t be so sure. A cursory search of the medical literature indicates that there have been comparative studies on the effectiveness of different methods. Paywalls prevent me from reading all the results, but the mere existence of such studies shows that those with considerably more medical knowledge than I have at least _suspected_ that there were some important differences.