# Look at this Apache gun cam film.. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 18, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020 "2004-01-18T00:15:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/21 "2004-01-18T16:31:37Z")
Anyone who runs is an enemy combatant. Anyone who stands still is a well-disciplined enemy combatant. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/22 "2004-01-18T16:32:33Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > The [M230 30mm automatic cannon](http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/apm230.htm) has a range of roughly 5 kilometers, depending on visibility, nature of the target (armored targets need to be engaged at closer range), and other factors, I bet. Good stuff. ``` That FLIR camera seems off a bit sometimes... the pilot probably doesn't aim with it. Still the bullets seemed to be hitting above the "centre mark". I figure he certainly isn't shooting at a long range. Could it be another type of helicopter instead of Apache ? ``` ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/23 "2004-01-18T16:40:04Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > Anyone who runs is an enemy combatant. Anyone who stands still is a well-disciplined enemy combatant. ``` What if they raise their arms ? Probably praising Allah... shoot 'em. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/24 "2004-01-18T16:43:19Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > What if they raise their arms ? Probably praising Allah… shoot 'em. Wait, you said Allah! You’re an enemy combatant! DIE! ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/25 "2004-01-18T16:44:46Z")
There is some half-hearted speculation at another board (of an armchair-general nature) is that the footage is actually of a AH-1 Cobra of some sort. The ammo counter in the lower right shows 300 or so rounds, while the full load for an Apache is 1200(!) rounds. From the postings there, I gather that a ‘normal’ load for an Apache is 750 rounds. The max load for a Cobra (with the M197 3-barrel 20mm cannon) is 500 rounds, with the purported average being 350-400. Hardly decisive proof, but it was fun disassembling the footage. The Apache most likely busy, or just downloaded to save weight. Regardless, in the lower right you see ‘TADS’, which stands for ‘Target Acquisition Designation Sight’, which the Apache has, but the Cobra does not. (It uses ‘NTS’? Night Target System.) Also, the Army is supposed to be rid of its AH-1 by 2004, and the Marines, who use the Super Cobra, are not back in Iraq yet methinks, so I go with Apache. The other armed helicopters we are known to have in theater: -OH-58 Kiowa Warrior: Fixed forward firing .50 gunpod, optional. -UH-60 Blackhawk: Sidemounted manually aimed machine guns. -UH-47 Chinook: Same as Blackhawk. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/26 "2004-01-18T16:48:25Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#): > > You think that the American hospitals/doctors/whatever kind of medicine we have established would be very hospitable to the man? Actually, yes, I think our doctors over there _would_ treat a wounded enemy. They’re certainly _supposed_ to. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > You did notice that he specifically made sure he hit that last pick-up too ? The wounded guy was far from it… needless material damage on purpose. Are you concerned because they seemed to have shot up a _pick-up truck_, or did I just misunderstand that somehow? Under the circumstances, I have to say that seems like a really bizarre thing to be concerned about. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/27 "2004-01-18T16:50:57Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Actually, yes, I think our doctors over there _would_ treat a wounded enemy. They’re certainly _supposed_ to. > > Are you concerned because they seemed to have shot up a _pick-up truck_, or did I just misunderstand that somehow? Under the circumstances, I have to say that seems like a really bizarre thing to be concerned about. Well, yeah they’re _supposed_ too. No telling what would really happen. The president is _supposed_ to act in the best interests of the people in this country, and to keep us out of frivolous “wars.” ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/28 "2004-01-18T16:52:10Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Are you concerned because they seemed to have shot up a _pick-up truck_, or did I just misunderstand that somehow? Under the circumstances, I have to say that seems like a really bizarre thing to be concerned about. ``` Its not that I worry more about pick-up trucks... but the wanton destruction when he is obviously very well in control seems wierd and needless. They sure know that no one is hiding in the pick-up or behind it. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/29 "2004-01-18T17:02:42Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > There is some half-hearted speculation at another board (of an armchair-general nature) is that the footage is actually of a AH-1 Cobra of some sort. Also, the Army is supposed to be rid of its AH-1 by 2004, and the Marines, who use the Super Cobra, are not back in Iraq yet methinks, so I go with Apache. ``` Apaches don't use 20mm ? ``` I took a quick goggle and the Apache Longbow boeing site says it can remain undetected at a distance in any weather… bla bla… etc… so the Apache isn’t as rudimentary and noisy as I thought. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/30 "2004-01-18T17:04:04Z")
Ilsa Lund, you seem to have some nasty ideas about doctors. Treating ‘enemies’ is not that uncommon. Also, Iraq is NOT a third-world country and they do have both hospitals and competent doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/31 "2004-01-18T17:06:19Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Ilsa Lund, you seem to have some nasty ideas about doctors. Treating ‘enemies’ is not that uncommon. Also, Iraq is NOT a third-world country and they do have both hospitals and competent doctors. It’s not the doctors I have the nasty ideas about, just the prospects for some guy in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the night, full of 30mm ammo. I know they have hospitals and doctors, they took care of Pfc. Lynch. Are you quite sure they aren’t a third world country? Not being snarky, I’m just not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/32 "2004-01-18T17:08:55Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Ilsa Lund, you seem to have some nasty ideas about doctors. Treating ‘enemies’ is not that uncommon. Also, Iraq is NOT a third-world country and they do have both hospitals and competent doctors. Iraq is not a third world country ? Since when have they been promoted to 2nd or 1st world ? Unless you mean they are a colony now and part of the USA. 🙂 ``` I agree with Ilsa that the medical services must be sub-par... but it beats taking a 30mm shell anyday. As for treating enemy personell I can see that the Iraqis treat the wounded, like Private Jessica Lynch, way better than these 4th division choppers. ``` [Info on Apache Helicopter](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/weapons/apache.html) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/33 "2004-01-18T17:10:25Z")
**Rashak** , they are noisy as all hell when they are overhead, (every so often we get some flying around here), but at a distance of several kilometers, I doubt I would hear it. Especially not if 30mm high-explosive rounds were going off all around me. The Apache (in this case) is not ‘stealthy’ so much as ‘far away’. The new [RAH-66 Comanche](http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/rah66/rah66tech.htm) will be quieter, but I don’t know by how much. And the Army went with the 30mm for the Apache, but will be going back to the 20mm for the Comanche. (Which is more of a light recon/strike helicopter than a proper attack helicopter.) ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/34 "2004-01-18T17:15:05Z")
The angle of the film is wierd Brutus… I would venture that chopper is higher rather than farther away. Still its not a high angle. At night an Apache 3km away would be easier to hear than during the day woudln’t it ? Also there is a rattle like firing right at the beggining of the video… but no shots were fired. What was it ? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/35 "2004-01-18T17:19:39Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Don’t say “for all we know” when it’s actually only _you_ that hasn’t got a fucking clue what you’re talking about. > > It took place on 1 December 2003. The ABC story linked to above gives the date. Geez… what the hell crawled up your ass and made you so angry? For all we know" is a figure of speech. I hadn’t read the ABC article when I posted… and regardless of the date, there isn’t any context involved. And as for whether or not it’s legitimate… that’s usually not the kind of decision left to the soldiers in the field to make. There is a precedent for soldiers not obeying illegal orders, but I have the suspicion that with the ongoing guerrilla-type attacks against our troops, that they’re not going too deep into whether shooting Iraqis with something questionable is or isn’t an illegal order. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/36 "2004-01-18T17:42:38Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#): > > It’s not the doctors I have the nasty ideas about, just the prospects for some guy in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the night, full of 30mm ammo. > > I know they have hospitals and doctors, they took care of Pfc. Lynch. Are you quite sure they aren’t a third world country? Not being snarky, I’m just not sure. I seriously doubt the person was “full” of 30mm rounds, as he would tend to be in pieces after such an event. That you would want to be killed really has zero bearing on this, as you were not the one lying there being killed. I stand by my statement that if it had been an American being shot like this, Bush would be calling this an act of barbarism. I’m not anti-war by any stretch of the imagination but calling in a strike on a known wounded combatant doesn’t sound kosher. If someone wounded is still a threat and should be shot, then why all the fuss about bombing hospitals? ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/37 "2004-01-18T18:38:57Z")
> [@The Long Road](#): > > I seriously doubt the person was “full” of 30mm rounds, as he would tend to be in pieces after such an event. That you would want to be killed really has zero bearing on this, as you were not the one lying there being killed. I stand by my statement that if it had been an American being shot like this, Bush would be calling this an act of barbarism. I’m not anti-war by any stretch of the imagination but calling in a strike on a known wounded combatant doesn’t sound kosher. If someone wounded is still a threat and should be shot, then why all the fuss about bombing hospitals? You are probably, no, certainly right about Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/38 "2004-01-19T00:03:14Z")
There doesn’t seem to be anyway to tell if that guy who was on the ground was seriously wounded, or stunned, or what. Sure, he might have been out of the fight, and the Apache could have taken off and left him there. And maybe he would have gotten back up, grabbed that RPG they were supposed to have, and killed another couple of our troops. Or not. Hell, that 30mm cannon might have taken off both of that guys legs at the knees. But you don’t need feet to fire an RPG. Statements made by Our Fearless Leader to the contrary, it’s still a warzone over there. Yeah, it’d be great if they could have rushed out there with an ambulance to save the life of the guy who was just trying to kill them, I’d much rather our soldiers do everything necessary and reasonable to keep themselves alive while completing their mission. And that means not turning your back on live combatants unless you are _absolutely sure_ they are no longer a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/39 "2004-01-19T05:50:47Z")
Why, yes, war is hell; and that is the reason that before waging war one must be damn sure it´s the best thing to do… or better said the least bad thing to do. This kind of event, IMO is like cockroaches, when you see one of those ugly things you know that there must be dozens more hidden somewhere that you never get to see. ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020/40 "2004-01-19T05:51:48Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Its not that I worry more about pick-up trucks… but the wanton destruction when he is obviously very well in control seems wierd and needless. They sure know that no one is hiding in the pick-up or behind it. There is a very good reason the gunner took out the pick-up truck. The truck was being used by the enemy, and could be used again if left alone. Destroying the truck makes sure it isn’t used again by anyone. Also, it could have concevably contained weapons or explosives. I doubt anyting in that truck was usable after it was hit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-at-this-apache-gun-cam-film/225020.md?page=3)