# Look, here's the Straight Dope on Political Correctness **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792 "2016-01-21T17:01:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/21 "2016-01-21T18:49:03Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Look, it could just as well be argued that instances of people being charged with racism, sexism, microaggressions etc. are attempts to shut down debate/expression of ideas. And such arguments of “suppression” are often [just as dubious](http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbdkt7h6fF1qenuw9o1_500.png). I like. Everybody has their technique for shutting down the other side. Even rationalists like Dopers have “Godwin’s Law” and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/22 "2016-01-21T18:56:52Z")
Look, there should be a way for Trump to insult women without being labeled a misogynist. What would you suggest instead? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/23 "2016-01-21T18:57:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because the former, and not the latter, are characteristic of historic patterns of misogyny, as you know. No, I don’t know. (Gratuitously adding “as you know” about something that is highly questionable at best is remarkably similar to trying to bolster your case by beginning with “Look, …”) I disagree that calling women “fat pigs, dogs, slobs and disgusting animals” is part of any historic pattern of misogyny. > [@steronz](#): > > I don’t know that trump has a history of calling men those same names. Looking at this with no background info, if he has a habit of using disparaging insults against women, and women only, that supports an accusation of misogyny. That’s a very big “if” there. I don’t either know any details on what Trump might have called men, but based on everything I’ve seen of the guy I would give pretty good odds that he’s just an all-purpose obnoxious guy. > [@](#): > > Maybe his response to Meghan could have been, “I call lots of people those names, men and women. I’m an insult machine, not a misogynist!” That may have been a valid response. Instead, he rejected the _validity_ of the question, as if there’s no way that calling women disparaging names could ever be an issue for anyone not worried about political correctness. I think it was obvious that the premise of the question was that calling women names was specifically objectionable. Trump correctly called that out as PC. If Meghan had made the claim that Trump had not similarly called men such names then the response you suggest would have been appropriate. But since she produced nothing other than the mere fact that he had insulted some specific women, his response was on point. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/24 "2016-01-21T18:57:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because the former, and not the latter, are characteristic of historic patterns of misogyny, as you know. If he had hurled such insults at both African-Americans and whites, only the former would be racist; same reasons. That’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/25 "2016-01-21T19:01:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Look, there should be a way for Trump to insult women without being labeled a misogynist. Let’s face it, there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/26 "2016-01-21T19:12:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why do they need a catch phrase? Wouldn’t argument do? Look, some people like catchphrases. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/27 "2016-01-21T19:13:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s a very big “if” there. I don’t either know any details on what Trump might have called men, but based on everything I’ve seen of the guy I would give pretty good odds that he’s just an all-purpose obnoxious guy. I think it was obvious that the premise of the question was that calling women names was specifically objectionable. It _is_ objectionable, though. I’m not exactly a fan of Megyn Kelly, but I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt as a woman and as a journalist that she’s not accusing Trump of being a misogynist because she’s unfamiliar with the mind-blowing fact that he may have called a guy a fat pig at some point. It’s clear, to me at least, that there’s an implication in her question that he’s NOT an equal opportunity insulter, and I don’t fault her for not belaboring the question with caveats. The accusation might be unfounded, and Trump may very well have a valid defense, but dismissing the question out of hand is a lame move. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Trump correctly called that out as PC. If Meghan had made the claim that Trump had not similarly called men such names then the response you suggest would have been appropriate. But since she produced nothing other than the mere fact that he had insulted some specific women, his response was on point. Let’s pretend that Trump _is_ a misogynist and doesn’t call men those same names with any sort of frequency, and Megyn had the data to back it up. What else would you want her to produce? Would you expect her, in an interview, to pull out data supporting her claim? Why isn’t it fair to ask the question based on the data without necessarily incorporating the existence of the data into the question? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/28 "2016-01-21T19:17:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Look, there should be a way for Trump to insult women without being labeled a misogynist. What would you suggest instead? [Dopers and comics and pundits,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=781532) [just in the past few days,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=781639) have found plenty of non-misogynist ways to insult Sarah Palin. He could use that as a model. Problem is, that approach only works when the insults are genuinely deserved, and I don’t think Trump is psychologically capable of working within those limits. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/29 "2016-01-21T19:17:17Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m not exactly a fan of Megyn Kelly, but I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt as a woman and as a journalist that she’s not accusing Trump of being a misogynist because she’s unfamiliar with the mind-blowing fact that he may have called a guy a fat pig at some point. It’s clear, to me at least, that there’s an implication in her question that he’s NOT an equal opportunity insulter, and I don’t fault her for not belaboring the question with caveats. Well it’s not at all clear to me, and I very highly doubt if it’s true. I think Kelly was influenced by the PC notion that insults against women are to be treated as insults against the group category of women. > [@](#): > > Let’s pretend that Trump _is_ a misogynist and doesn’t call men those same names with any sort of frequency, and Megyn had the data to back it up. What else would you want her to produce? Would you expect her, in an interview, to pull out data supporting her claim? Why isn’t it fair to ask the question based on the data without necessarily incorporating the existence of the data into the question? Of course she wouldn’t need any data. But she should at least have made the claim, so that her question would be understood to mean what you’re interpreting it to be. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/30 "2016-01-21T19:21:31Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I like. Everybody has their technique for shutting down the other side. Even rationalists like Dopers have “Godwin’s Law” and the like. But in rational circles, defensible comparisons with Hitler are never actually off the table; Godwin’s Law is merely cautionary. Are you comparing Trump with Hitler because you see actual similarities, or is it merely a snarl-word? The fact that the probability of such comparisons being made “approaches one” as discourse continues is merely grounds to examine one’s position and rule out the snarl-word possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/31 "2016-01-21T19:28:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Dopers and comics and pundits,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=781532) [just in the past few days,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=781639) have found plenty of non-misogynist ways to insult Sarah Palin. He could use that as a model. Problem is, that approach only works when the insults are genuinely deserved, and I don’t think Trump is psychologically capable of working within those limits. Look, links to two other threads with no mention of how they are relevant is lazy. What are you trying but failing to say? Palin deserves to be insulted, so that’s not misogynist, but if it’s undeserved, then it is? The double standard is too thin, try and hide it more. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Let’s face it, there isn’t. Why not? If he called a specific woman a fuck head or an asshole, is that misogynist as well? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/32 "2016-01-21T19:47:50Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Why not? If he called a specific woman a fuck head or an asshole, is that misogynist as well? I just meant inevitably someone will think so. So BrainGlutton, on the first page of that first link you gave to Bone, I see Palin described as giving a “screeching” speech and her being called a “brainless twat”. Didn’t notice anyone get upset about the misogyny. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/33 "2016-01-21T19:55:32Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Look, links to two other threads with no mention of how they are relevant is lazy. They are relevant in exactly the way I said they are relevant, and directly relevant and responsive to **your** question – because they’re full of insults, original or quoted, directed at Palin, most of which are not misogynistic insults. E.g., Trevor Noah says of her Trump-endorsement speech, [“It’s like she’s a malfunctioning robot.”](http://www.salon.com/2016/01/21/its_like_shes_a_malfunctioning_robot_trevor_noah_continues_his_glorious_assault_on_sarah_palins_bizarre_endorsement_speech/) Stephen Colbert says, [“Sarah Palin just guaranteed Trump the evangelical vote because I think she was speaking in tongues!”](http://www.salon.com/2016/01/21/god_i_have_missed_you_stephen_colbert_exults_at_sarah_palin_speaking_in_tongues_during_donald_trump_endorsement/) Those are genuinely witty insults, well-deserved, **and would be no different if Palin were male.** But Trump is not equal to Noah’s or Colbert’s level of wit. Nor even to the average Doper’s. > [@Bone](#): > > What are you trying but failing to say? Palin deserves to be insulted, so that’s not misogynist, but if it’s undeserved, then it is? No. Calling Palin a fat pig, dog, cunt, etc., would be misogynistic. She deserves insults, see above, but no woman deserves that kind. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/34 "2016-01-21T20:01:11Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So BrainGlutton, on the first page of that first link you gave to Bone, I see Palin described as giving a “screeching” speech and her being called a “brainless twat”. Didn’t notice anyone get upset about the misogyny. I’ll gladly admit it **is** misogyny, and would prefer to avoid such language myself, but there are also plenty of non-misogynistic insults in it, see above. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/35 "2016-01-21T20:04:59Z")
> [@Brainglutton](#): > > No. Calling Palin a fat pig, dog, cunt, etc., would be misogynistic. She deserves insults, see above, but no woman deserves that kind. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/36 "2016-01-21T20:20:28Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Why? You mean beyond being puerile? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/37 "2016-01-21T20:32:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They are relevant in exactly the way I said they are relevant, and directly relevant and responsive to **your** question – because they’re full of insults, original or quoted, directed at Palin, most of which are not misogynistic insults. So you vomit two links without indicating what you are referencing, and then claim they are insults, but “most” are not misogynistic. But then you say this about the items from one of of the links you put forward: > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ll gladly admit it **is** misogyny, and would prefer to avoid such language myself, but there are also plenty of non-misogynistic insults in it, see above. So now, that is misogyny. Maybe it falls outside of what you are considering “most”? Did you do a careful tally to draw that conclusion? Was the reader supposed to overcome the link dump and ferret out your point? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No. Calling Palin a fat pig, dog, cunt, etc., would be misogynistic. She deserves insults, see above, but no woman deserves that kind. So let me get this straight - you think it’s okay to call Palin a dick, but a twat is misogynistic? Why does no woman deserve a particular kind of insult? It’s not like women are too fragile. Both men and women have assholes so can that be used in a non-misogynistic way? These rules, they seem pretty stupid. Which is the point of criticizing over-PC-ness. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/38 "2016-01-21T21:40:21Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > You mean beyond being puerile? Yes, beyond being puerile. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/39 "2016-01-21T21:55:08Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Why? Look, I think we all know what kinds of insults disparage women **as** women, and would not be directed at men with anything like the same connotations and emotional baggage. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792/40 "2016-01-21T22:01:15Z")
If I call a man a bitch and I call a woman a bitch, I have used the word in two very different senses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-heres-the-straight-dope-on-political-correctness/743792.md?page=3)