# Look, Islam is not the enemy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644 "2015-11-26T16:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/241 "2015-12-04T01:55:09Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > A buzzword? Female genital mutilation invokes revulsion because mutilating girls is REVOLTING. The article you cited explained that all forms of cutting of girls genitals is harmful, that none of it is beneficial, and thus all of it is considered by the World Health Organization to be Female Genital Mutilation. So are pierced ears and lips. The really bad form, (still less than a clitorectomy) was found to have been imposed on 22% of the women surveyed prior to the survey nearly 20 years ago and the numbers have been falling. The versions most applied, today, inflict the same level of injury as a pierced ear, nose, or lip. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > You are pretending that circumcision, as it is practiced in Indonesia, > > This is the THIRD time that you have done this, claiming that the less damaging forms of FGM are\*\* THE\*\* forms practiced in Indonesia, when the very article that you cited explains clearly how this is not true, and how the least damaging forms of FGM are only due of the efforts of activists to reduce harm, and are often resisted by the mainstream public and religious leaders. I keep explaining this to you and you just keep humming with your fingers in your ears and pretending not to hear it. This is interesting. I make an observation about circumcision and you go haring off on a complaint about FGM. In point of fact, the forms of male circumcision that are applied in Indonesian rituals have only a bare resemblance to the form found in American hospitals and is much closer to the FGM against which you rail. And that is the point. Whatever claims you want to make about North American hospital-based male circumcision, (claims that are, themselves, controversial and are often regarded as being made to cater to cultural beliefs), they have little to do with the male circumcision imposed on pubescent boys in Indonesia. In other words, the children of both sexes are treated about the same, making your claim that FGM demonstrates that women in Indonesia are being oppressed (particularly in contrast to men), so much invented fulminating. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Male circumcision has been shown to have medical benefits at both an individual and a population level. Not really. Most of the pro-circumcision studies are mirrored by anti- studies. But that is really irrelevant since the way that it is carried out in Indonesia, (scarring rather than removal of the foreskin, imposed with minimum antiseptics or anesthesia, often performed in public places with no effort to maintain a sterile environment, etc.), renders your great health claims so much nonsense in the context of this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/242 "2015-12-04T04:04:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So are pierced ears and lips. The really bad form, (still less than a clitorectomy) was found to have been imposed on 22% of the women surveyed prior to the survey nearly 20 years ago and the numbers have been falling. The versions most applied, today, inflict the same level of injury as a pierced ear, nose, or lip. The article that you cited stated that there is serious social and religious resistance to the less severe forms of mutilation, and that all of the forms are both physically and psychologically harmful. And unless you can point to a nation where 90% of infants have their ears pierced, that comparison is pretty meaningless, leaving aside the fact that _ **an earlobe is not a clitoris** _. > [@](#): > > This is interesting. I make an observation about circumcision and you go haring off on a complaint about FGM. In point of fact, the forms of male circumcision that are applied in Indonesian rituals have only a bare resemblance to the form found in American hospitals and is much closer to the FGM against which you rail. And that is the point. Whatever claims you want to make about North American hospital-based male circumcision, WTF do you mean a “bare resemblance”? They cut off the foreskin in both cases, and in both cases the procedure has a known medical benefit. > [@](#): > > (claims that are, themselves, controversial and are often regarded as being made to cater to cultural beliefs), All kinds of things are “controversial” among those who disregard science. Hell, the damn moon landings are “controversial” to some. Male circumcision has been shown to greatly reduce the chance of catching and especially of spreading sexually transmitted diseases. > [@](#): > > they have little to do with the male circumcision imposed on pubescent boys in Indonesia. In other words, the children of both sexes are treated about the same, No, they are not treated the same. Not. At. All. Boys are given an operation with known medical benefits, and girls are mutilated by having their clitorises cut. > [@](#): > > making your claim that FGM demonstrates that women in Indonesia are being oppressed (particularly in contrast to men), so much invented fulminating. I don’t know what world you inhabit where 90% of girls undergoing genital mutilation does not demonstrate that women are oppressed, but I would like to know where it is so I can make sure to never go there, and so I can let every girl and woman I know so that they to can stay as far away from there as possible. > [@](#): > > Not really. Most of the pro-circumcision studies are mirrored by anti- studies. They are not “pro-circumcision” studies, they are pro-not spreading AIDS and other STD studies, which have shown that circumcision is very effective in reducing the spread of disease. > [@](#): > > But that is really irrelevant since the way that it is carried out in Indonesia, (scarring rather than removal of the foreskin, imposed with minimum antiseptics or anesthesia, often performed in public places with no effort to maintain a sterile environment, etc.), renders your great health claims so much nonsense in the context of this discussion. Your original comparison was the false equivalence to North America. Also: > **[Global Lessons from the AIDS Pandemic](https://books.google.com/books?id=1TwUbLmY5McC&pg=PA305)** > > We began to research for this book in 2000, with the idea that we might contribute to the search for solutions to the global HIV/AIDS pandemic by c- bining perspectives from different disciplines. Much has happened in the interv- ing years. First,... > [@](#): > > There is significant evidence that male circumcision significantly reduces HIV transmission. Box 9.1 discusses the relationship between circumcision and HIV/AIDS. > > A similar picture is seen in South and South-East Asia, where overall HIV prevalence is much lower, but the countries with highest HIV prevalence have little male circumcision, (Papua New Guinea, Cambodia, and Thailand). Conversely, HIV prevalence is extremely low in those countries where most men are circumcised (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and Philippines). Now go read [Box 9.1 on the next page](https://books.google.com/books?id=1TwUbLmY5McC&pg=PA305): > [@](#): > > There is ecological evidence that the prevalence of circumcision is negatively correlated with the prevalence of HIV/AIDS. Specifically, there is a strong inverse correlation between the prevalence of circumcision and the prevalence of HIV in those countries. All the highest HIV prevalence countries are those where circumcision is little practiced. In fact, no country with nearly universal circumcision coverage has ever had an adult HIV prevalence higher that 8%\< including countries such as Cameroon, where a 1997 survey found sexual behavior to be higher risk than that in countries with prevalence around 25%. This fact is illustrated in[figure 9.4](https://books.google.com/books?id=1TwUbLmY5McC&pg=PA305). No, a country where 90% of girls undergo genital mutilation and must undergo state sponsored rape style “virginity tests” to join the army is in no way an example of a place that respects women’s rights. To claim that it is is\*\* absurd\*\*. [Human Rights Watch:](https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/05/13/indonesia-military-imposing-virginity-tests) > [@](#): > > (Jakarta) – International military physicians convening in Indonesia should urge President Joko Widodo to abolish discriminatory and invasive “virginity tests” for female recruits and fiancées of military officers in the Indonesian armed forces, Human Rights Watch said today. The International Committee of Military Medicine (ICMM), a Belgium-based intergovernmental organization dedicated to fostering “professional collaboration between members of the Armed Forces Medical Services of all States” will convene its world conference in Bali on May 17-22, 2015. > > The Indonesian military should immediately end the use of so-called virginity tests, which violate the prohibition of cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment under international human rights law. > > “The Indonesian armed forces should recognize that harmful and humiliating ‘virginity tests’ on women recruits does nothing to strengthen national security,” said Nisha Varia, women’s rights advocacy director. “President Joko Widodo should set the military straight and immediately abolish the requirement and prevent all military hospitals from administering it.” > > Human Rights Watch sent letters to the ICMM and 16 member countries asking them to urge the Indonesian armed forces to cease all “virginity tests.” A Human Rights Watch letter to Maj. Gen. Daniel Tjen, the general surgeon of the Indonesian National Armed Forces, received no response. > > Virginity testing is a form of gender-based violence and is a widely discredited practice. In November 2014, the World Health Organization issued guidelines that stated, “There is no place for virginity (or ‘two-finger’) testing; it has no scientific validity.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/243 "2015-12-04T04:51:48Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > WTF do you mean a “bare resemblance”? They cut off the foreskin in both cases, and in both cases the procedure has a known medical benefit. You are presuming that they remove the foreskin in both cases, but that is not the case. In the Indonesian culture, sometimes the foreskin is removed and sometimes only a portion is removed and sometimes the foreskin is just scarred. Your need to have any and all forms of circumcision be a wonderful benefit, like your need to have any and all phenomena identified as FGM be horrible mutilations is based on your desires and not on the reality of the phenomena. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > All kinds of things are “controversial” among those who disregard science. Hell, the damn moon landings are “controversial” to some. Male circumcision has been shown to greatly reduce the chance of catching and especially of spreading sexually transmitted diseases. I am not going to hijack this thread into a discussion of male circumcision, but there is not a unanimous opinion among doctors or researchers associated with Western medicine that circumcision is all that wonderful. Despite your desires, [it is still a controversial topic within the medical community](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_controversies#Medical_advocacy_and_opposition). And that is even without getting into your unsupported belief that circumcision is universally practiced in the same way. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > No, they are not treated the same. Not. At. All. Boys are given an operation with known medical benefits, and girls are mutilated by having their clitorises cut. Bullshit. There have been recent efforts to practice more sterile operations on both boys and girls, but there is no universal practice in Indonesia that treats boys differently than girls. That is more wishful thinking on your part. A claim that “Boys are given an operation” in a country where cities promote performing thousands of circumcisions in a day as a sporting event is not “giving them” a medical operation. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I don’t know what world you inhabit where 90% of girls undergoing genital mutilation does not demonstrate that women are oppressed, but I would like to know where it is so I can make sure to never go there, and so I can let every girl and woman I know so that they to can stay as far away from there as possible. meh. You wave around your buzzword while demonstrating that you are not even informed on the topic regarding either boys or girls. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > No, a country where 90% of girls undergo genital mutilation and must undergo state sponsored rape style “virginity tests” to join the army is in no way an example of a place that respects women’s rights. To claim that it is is\*\* absurd\*\*. > > [Human Rights Watch:](https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/05/13/indonesia-military-imposing-virginity-tests) The virginity tests are finally an example of not respecting women. (It actually addresses the issue in the way that your FGM hysteria and your pretending that male circumcision, there, is the same as it is in the West, does not.) However, that demonstrates only that Indonesia has a way to go to approach Western standards (for military recruitment), not that all women are constantly oppressed in Indonesia. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/244 "2015-12-04T05:06:13Z")
I’ve been reading but not posting so far, so I may have missed something, but I’m not understanding the relevance of the FGM argument to the debate about Islam _per se_. If there’s one thing we know about FGM, it’s that it’s not religion-specific. In some African countries a higher percentage of Christian women than Muslim women undergo FGM; in others, it’s the other way around. Many Animist religious groups also practice FGM. Most African countries, whether majority-Muslim or otherwise, have officially outlawed the practice of FGM. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/245 "2015-12-04T05:20:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’ve been reading but not posting so far, so I may have missed something, but I’m not understanding the relevance of the FGM argument to the debate about Islam _per se_. If there’s one thing we know about FGM, it’s that it’s not religion-specific. > > In some African countries a higher percentage of Christian women than Muslim women undergo FGM; in others, it’s the other way around. Many Animist religious groups also practice FGM. Most African countries, whether majority-Muslim or otherwise, have officially outlawed the practice of FGM. FGM is an not \*merely \*an Islamic problem, but it is still an Islamic problem: > **[TFT-Story](https://thefridaytimes.com/tft)** > > TFT-Story > [@](#): > > Maher cited the fact that 91% of women in Egypt and 98% in Somalia have undergone female genital mutilation (FGM) to showcase mistreatment of women in the Muslim world. > > Aslan called FGM an “African problem”, and not an “Islamic problem” with Eritrea (89%) and Ethiopia (63%) – both Christian majority countries – vindicating that it isn’t an exclusively Muslim problem. > > While it is true that FGM primarily prevails in Africa, but Yemen (23%) and Iraq (8%, Kurdistan 72%) also depict the criminal trend in the Middle East. By dubbing it an exclusively “African problem”, Aslan is guilty of conjuring the same simplistic generalisations that he was countering in the interview. > > When 2 million women in Indonesia have their clitorises cut every year and 60-90% Malay women undergo female circumcision, it obviously isn’t just an ‘African problem’. Not after Nahdlatul Ulama (NU) with 40 million followers in Indonesia has given a fatwa in favour of FGM and the fact that 82% Malaysian Muslim women claim that it’s a religious obligation. > > Even though seven of the eight countries with the highest FGM percentages are African Muslim countries, Eritrea and Ethiopia prove that it’s not an exclusively Muslim issue, while Indonesia and Malaysia attest that it’s not an exclusively African issue either. Not to mention the fact that the 91% in Egypt can’t be put down to ‘African tribal culture’, with the Muslim Brotherhood wholeheartedly endorsing FGM. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/246 "2015-12-04T07:03:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are presuming that they remove the foreskin in both cases, but that is not the case. In the Indonesian culture, sometimes the foreskin is removed and sometimes only a portion is removed and sometimes the foreskin is just scarred. Your need to have any and all forms of circumcision be a wonderful benefit, like your need to have any and all phenomena identified as FGM be horrible mutilations is based on your desires and not on the reality of the phenomena. Nothing is based on my need, it is based on facts. A mutilation of a girl’s genitals is horrible, _by default_. > [@](#): > > I am not going to hijack this thread into a discussion of male circumcision, but there is not a unanimous opinion among doctors or researchers associated with Western medicine that circumcision is all that wonderful. Despite your desires, [it is still a controversial topic within the medical community](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_controversies#Medical_advocacy_and_opposition). And that is even without getting into your unsupported belief that circumcision is universally practiced in the same way. > **[Circumcision controversies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_controversies#Medical_advocacy_and_opposition)** > > Male circumcision has been a subject of controversy for a number of reasons including religious, ethical, sexual, and medical. > During the late 19th and early 20th centuries, in a rapidly changing medical and surgical world, circumcision rose in popularity as a means of primitive prophylaxis in the Anglosphere. Its primary justification was to promote cleanliness, as well as reducing and preventing the incidence of disease. Many medical professionals and advocates of the procedure also believ... _The WHO and UNAIDS recommend male circumcision as a means of reducing the rate of HIV infection,[65] but this has also proved controversial, with doubts raised about the efficacy of mass circumcision campaigns in sub-Saharan Africa.[66][67] Critics have themselves been the subject of criticism; Kalichman writes: “Anticircumcision groups have long existed and are increasingly vocal as MC programs for HIV prevention are promoted. **Anticircumcision groups resemble other antiscience and antimedicine extremists including AIDS denialists who refute public health realities to maintain entrenched belief systems** ”[68] Three separate studies in Africa designed to clinically assess the connection between circumcision and a lower risk of getting AIDS, each involving thousands of subjects, showed dramatic decreases in AIDS transmission in the circumcised individuals._ Indeed. And: _A survey of the scientific literature on the topic published in 2014 by Mayo Clinic Proceedings reviewed about 3,000 studies published since 1988. The analysis concluded that the health benefits of male circumcision outweigh the costs. Specifically, the study found that the chances of contracting urinary tract infections, human papillomavirus, HIV, and other diseases were significantly reduced with circumcision._ There is no controversy over the fact that circumcision provides medical benefit, the controversy is, like many beneficial surgeries, is whether the benefits are worth the risks. The evidence points very strongly to the benefits outweighing the risks, and the evidence also points strongly to Indonesia’s low rate of HIV infection being due in large part to circumcision. > [@](#): > > Bullshit. There have been recent efforts to practice more sterile operations on both boys and girls, but there is no universal practice in Indonesia that treats boys differently than girls. That is more wishful thinking on your part. A claim that “Boys are given an operation” in a country where cities promote performing thousands of circumcisions in a day as a sporting event is not “giving them” a medical operation. Circumcision, _as it exists in Indonesia_, very likely reduces the spread of STDs there, as it does in the rest of the world. It is a beneficial procedure, with risks. FGM is cutting of girls _for no medical benefit_, that’s why it’s mutilation. Your observations, that you seem to think to be so profound, that both circumcision and FGM are often performed in unsanitary conditions, or that circumcisions are not performed uniformly, does nothing to change this profound difference. > [@](#): > > The virginity tests are finally an example of not respecting women. (It actually addresses the issue in the way that your FGM hysteria and your pretending that male circumcision, there, is the same as it is in the West, does not.) However, that demonstrates only that Indonesia has a way to go to approach Western standards (for military recruitment), not that all women are constantly oppressed in Indonesia. So now your standard is that ALL women need to be CONSTANTLY harassed in Indonesia. No, ALL women are not CONSTANTLY being penetrated against their will by strangers; only once if they want to join the Army or civil service, and ALL girls aren’t CONSTANTLY having their genitals mutilated; just 90% of them once in their lifetimes, to varying degrees of severity. Boy, you really showed me. This whole portion of the discussion was started by this claim (likely a parroting of of REZA Alsan’s CNN appearance, IMHO): [QUOTE=wolfpup] And yet, women’s rights are recognized and respected in heavily Muslim countries like Indonesia and Bangladesh. Bangladesh has a freaking _ **female Prime Minister** _ fer Christ’s sake. I don’t know if she can sing but I’m pretty sure she’d be allowed to. :rolleyes [/QUOTE] Using Indonesia as an example of a country that respects the human rights of women is absurd, because of rampant female genital mutilation, and the violent practice of “virginity testing”. None of what you have posted changes this conclusion at all. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/247 "2015-12-04T10:18:11Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Nothing is based on my need, it is based on facts. A mutilation of a girl’s genitals is horrible, _by default_. And scraping a needle across the area withourt drawing blood or even nicking a small bit of skin so that a drop of blood appears does not meet any definition of the word “mutilate.” That is simply your attempt to create a scare tactic (while you ignore the fact that, in the same country, “circumcision” can mean similar actions performed on the penis without the actual removal of the foreskin). You demonstrate no interest in “facts.” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/248 "2015-12-05T07:21:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And scraping a needle across the area withourt drawing blood or even nicking a small bit of skin so that a drop of blood appears does not meet any definition of the word “mutilate.” That is simply your attempt to create a scare tactic (while you ignore the fact that, in the same country, “circumcision” can mean similar actions performed on the penis without the actual removal of the foreskin). > > You demonstrate no interest in “facts.” I agree that a ‘symbolic’ circumcision is not mutilation, any more than taking the sacrament is cannibalism. That doesn’t change the fact that the real kind of mutilation is still apallingly common. And it doesn’t change the fact that on a wide range of issues, significant percentages of Muslims are horribly intolerant - even in ‘moderate’ Muslim countries. See my previous link to the PEW study earlier. I’m still surprised how many people on the left are willing to trash Christianity at the drop of a hat, but will do flips and twists to ignore or even condone behaviors and thoughts in the Muslim community that are far more ‘conservative’ and intolerant than even the most conservative western Christians. People who will freak out and march against a couple who don’t want to sell a cake to a gay couple will turn around and reflexively defend Muslims when some of them advocate stoning a gay couple to death. People who will instantly blame the Catholic church for the actions of a few priests who molest children will turn around and reflexively repeat that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance whenever something awful happens in its name - even though large percentages of Muslims believe some incredibly intolerant things. Why is it so hard to admit that Islam is facing a crisis - it is a faith with a warrior prophet who ordered that the faithful carry out jihad, that ‘infidels’ have no right to live, that gay people should be killed, that leaving the faith should be punishable by death, that women are inferior to men and so on. Of course there are many, many modern Muslims who see this stuff through a modern, enlightened lens and have found a personally acceptable way to bring their faith into peaceful, tolerant societies, but there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who still adhere to some very extreme beliefs. For example, even in the U.S., the Muslim community as a whole is second only to devout evangelical Christians in its opposition to gay marriage. I hear an awful lot of Christian bashing over this issue, but almost nothing against Muslims even though more Muslims are against gay marriage than are Catholics, mainstream Protestants, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists. And by a pretty big margin. Only Muslims and Evangelicals have a majority that opposes gay marriage in America. [Cite from ThinkProgress](http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/04/22/3649935/poll-american-muslims-supportive-sex-marriage-white-evangelical-christians/) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/249 "2015-12-05T21:41:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > . . . People who will freak out and march against a couple who don’t want to sell a cake to a gay couple will turn around and reflexively defend Muslims when some of them advocate stoning a gay couple to death. . . . Yes…and we’re right to do so. We were right to defend the right of people to march in public in Nazi uniforms. We would be right to defend the freedom of speech, even such hateful speech as you describe (so long as it is abstract, and not inciting an immediate violent offense.) (That was Tom Metzger’s blunder. Instead of saying, “White people need to get rid of all black people,” he was explicit in urging harm against a specific black person in a specific place and time.) Islam is no more the enemy than Christianity, just because Tom Metzger was a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/250 "2015-12-05T22:10:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’m still surprised how many people on the left are willing to trash Christianity at the drop of a hat, but will do flips and twists to ignore or even condone behaviors and thoughts in the Muslim community that are far more ‘conservative’ and intolerant than even the most conservative western Christians. > > People who will freak out and march against a couple who don’t want to sell a cake to a gay couple will turn around and reflexively defend Muslims when some of them advocate stoning a gay couple to death. People who will instantly blame the Catholic church for the actions of a few priests who molest children will turn around and reflexively repeat that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance whenever something awful happens in its name - even though large percentages of Muslims believe some incredibly intolerant things. That’s quite an extraordinary set of claims and allegations. If you can find someone who “freaks out and marches” against homophobic bakeries but is just fine with stoning gay couples, by all means tell us who these remarkable people are, or better still, bring them on over and have them explain how they rationalize this bizarre position. Or, if no such people exist, perhaps you might acknowledge that you’ve just created a rather ridiculous straw man for the purpose of further Muslim-bashing. I’ve said it before but it bears repeating. The homophobic evangelical Christian baker is following his Bible just as the devout Muslim follows his Qu’ran, and the Bible is explicitly clear in its exhortation to kill gays – I’ve quoted the relevant verses before. The only real difference is that the evangelical is forced to exercise his bigotry within the limits of law and culture in western society, as does the western Muslim, but Muslims in third-world backwaters have no such constraints. Neither do Christians, for which I cite the example of Eritrea, which is half Christian, in which homosexuality is illegal and punished by [jailing and beatings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Eritrea) and occasionally executions, and in which the practice of female genital mutilation is among the most widespread in the world. Similar horrors prevail in Christian-dominated backwaters in Africa and elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/251 "2015-12-05T23:32:14Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I agree that a ‘symbolic’ circumcision is not mutilation, any more than taking the sacrament is cannibalism. > > That doesn’t change the fact that the real kind of mutilation is still apallingly common. And it doesn’t change the fact that on a wide range of issues, significant percentages of Muslims are horribly intolerant - even in ‘moderate’ Muslim countries. See my previous link to the PEW study earlier. The most severe form of mutilation is not present in Indonesia. A form that is horrible, but not the most severe, is a mnority phenomenon that has been shrinking. I have no problem with people opposing any form, but that was not the topic, which was a claim that the presence of any form _khafd_ indicated that women in Indonesia were oppressed. Your post is not really a follow-on to that discussion. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > For example, even in the U.S., the Muslim community as a whole is second only to devout evangelical Christians in its opposition to gay marriage. I hear an awful lot of Christian bashing over this issue, but almost nothing against Muslims even though more Muslims are against gay marriage than are Catholics, mainstream Protestants, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists. And by a pretty big margin. Only Muslims and Evangelicals have a majority that opposes gay marriage in America. The most probable reason for this is that there are fewer Muslims than Episcopalians (who are a numerically tiny group) in the U.S. and Muslims in the U.S. wield no political power while Evangelical Christians wield considerable power. I have never seen any serious attacks on the Amish for their opposition to gay marriage, either. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/252 "2015-12-06T00:11:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The most severe form of mutilation is not present in Indonesia. A form that is horrible, but not the most severe, is a mnority phenomenon that has been shrinking. > I have no problem with people opposing any form, but that was not the topic, which was a claim that the presence of any form _khafd_ indicated that women in Indonesia were oppressed. Your post is not really a follow-on to that discussion. > > The most probable reason for this is that there are fewer Muslims than\*\* Episcopalians \*\*(who are a numerically tiny group) in the U.S. and Muslims in the U.S. wield no political power while Evangelical Christians wield considerable power. I have never seen any serious attacks on the Amish for their opposition to gay marriage, either. Minor nitpick. I think you meant to type “Evangelicals” not “Episcopalians” since while I don’t know if the if the Episcopal Church of the US has taken a stand on gay marriage, having at least one openly Gay bishop, Eugene Robinson, they clearly don’t condemn homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/253 "2015-12-06T00:17:36Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > That’s quite an extraordinary set of claims and allegations. If you can find someone who “freaks out and marches” against homophobic bakeries but is just fine with stoning gay couples, by all means tell us who these remarkable people are, or better still, bring them on over and have them explain how they rationalize this bizarre position. This example does not precisely meet your criteria, but it shows the reality of a phenomenon similar to what Sam Stone is describing: the current controversy at Goldsmith University in London over the appearance of Maryam Namazie, a feminist human rights activist accused of being Islamophobic because of her criticisms of Islam and Islamism. Her speech was interrupted by members of the University’s Islamic society. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl0sI47tVgY&feature=youtu.be) is an edited video of the interruptions, [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1ZiZdz5nao&feature=youtu.be)is the entire event. It is obvious who the aggressors are in this scene: the thugs from the Islamic society. But amazingly, both the [Feminist Society](http://goldfemsoc.tumblr.com/post/134396957048/goldsmiths-feminist-society-stands-in-solidarity) and the [LGBT society](https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=635682619906781&id=517587828382928) have released statements _condemning_ the Atheist and Humanist society for their behavior during the event, and _supporting_ The Islamic Society. The same Islamic society that has invited Hamza Tzortzis, who [“compared homosexuality to cannibalism and necrophilia and asserted how he believes that it should be a criminal act.”](http://ex-muslim.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/EvangelisingHate_Report_Web.pdf) (PDF, page 17) [Here](http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamnamazie/2015/12/01/goldsmith-isoc/) is Maryams statement. [Here](http://i.imgur.com/EpMTa0O.png) is the response of the Islamic Society. > [@](#): > > Or, if no such people exist, perhaps you might acknowledge that you’ve just created a rather ridiculous straw man for the purpose of further Muslim-bashing. No, this is not make believe, we are discussing a real phenomenon, a new bizarre world where LGBT activists and groups of supposed feminists will side with chauvinistic bullies who promote second class citizenship for women, over a female human rights activist who campaigns against stoning of women and regularly stands up for the rights of migrants and refugees. > [@](#): > > I’ve said it before but it bears repeating. The homophobic evangelical Christian baker is following his Bible just as the devout Muslim follows his Qu’ran, and the Bible is explicitly clear in its exhortation to kill gays – I’ve quoted the relevant verses before. The only real difference is that the evangelical is forced to exercise his bigotry within the limits of law and culture in western society, as does the western Muslim, but Muslims in third-world backwaters have no such constraints. Neither do Christians, for which I cite the example of Eritrea, which is half Christian, in which homosexuality is illegal and punished by [jailing and beatings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Eritrea) and occasionally executions, and in which the practice of female genital mutilation is among the most widespread in the world. Similar horrors prevail in Christian-dominated backwaters in Africa and elsewhere. Egypt, where FGM is rampant and where the biggest university is virulently homophobic, has not been a backwater for thousands of years. And the biggest Muslim group in the world came out in favor of FGM. You are mistaken in this notion of yours that you can neatly factor out Islam as a religion, or Islamism as a movement, from observations about the many socially destructive behaviors more common among Muslims than Westerners. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/254 "2015-12-06T00:27:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The most severe form of mutilation is not present in Indonesia. A form that is horrible, but not the most severe, is a mnority phenomenon that has been shrinking. > I have no problem with people opposing any form, but that was not the topic, which was a claim that the presence of any form _khafd_ indicated that women in Indonesia were oppressed. No. [This](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18905915&postcount=226) was the claim: “It is absurd to tout Indonesia, with FGM and virginity tests galore, as examples of countries where women aren’t suppressed.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/255 "2015-12-06T00:32:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Minor nitpick. > > I think you meant to type “Evangelicals” not “Episcopalians” since while I don’t know if the if the Episcopal Church of the US has taken a stand on gay marriage, having at least one openly Gay bishop, Eugene Robinson, they clearly don’t condemn homosexuality. The reference to Episcopalians alludes to the size of the group. While powerful, politically, (due to the number of members who have had positions of power in government and industry), it is a fairly small group. The reference to Evangelicals is an allusion to the political power they have exercised since the late 1970s, taking greater and greater control of the Republican Party. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/256 "2015-12-06T00:33:07Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > No. [This](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18905915&postcount=226) was the claim: > > “It is absurd to tout Indonesia, with FGM and virginity tests galore, as examples of countries where women aren’t suppressed.” There is no difference in meaning between my statement and yours–and you are still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/257 "2015-12-06T01:07:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There is no difference in meaning between my statement and yours–and you are still wrong. There is a big difference between the claims. Indonesia has FGM. Indonesia has virginity tests. It is absurd to use Indonesia as an example of a country where women are not suppressed. All of these things are true. Overall,[it has been getting worse there, not better:](http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/11/indonesia-women-srightsvirginitytestsfemalepoliceofficers.html) > [@](#): > > In many parts of Indonesia, local laws compelling women and girls to don the hijab, or headscarf, are increasingly common in schools, government offices and public spaces. While many of these laws specify traditional Sunni Muslim garb both for women and men, research by HRW shows they disproportionately target women. > > In January 2013 the mayor of Lhokseumawe in Aceh province barred women from straddling motorcycles in the name of Sharia. In May 2013 the district chief in neighboring Bireuen barred women from dancing in public places. In Gorontalo on Sulawesi Island the government removed its entire female support staff in July 2013, replacing them with men as part of an initiative supposedly to discourage extramarital affairs. In Meulaboh, another Aceh regency, the local government has restricted women to wearing skirts since 2012. > > The HRW is not alone in highlighting the proliferation of regulations that deny women the right to freedom from discrimination under international law. In August 2013, Indonesia’s Commission on Violence Against Women reported that since 1999, national and local governments have passed 342 discriminatory regulations, including 79 local laws requiring women to wear the hijab. Although the number of the discriminatory local laws has doubled, from 154 in 2009 to 334 in 2013, in July 2013 the Ministry of Home Affairs said it would revoke only eight of them. > > The United Nations has also sounded the alarm. “The committee is deeply concerned about the persistence of a large number of discriminatory laws at the national level … [as well as] discriminatory bylaws,” the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, said in its 2012 compliance review (PDF). > > Indonesian women’s rights groups have opposed the passage of these discriminatory regulations. The National Commission on Violence Against Women linked a sharp decline in the enactment of such rules from 2006 to 2009 to the “strong reactions from civil society at the national level.” > > This is not the Indonesia I knew growing up. I was born in Jember, a small town in East Java in 1965. At the time, there were no regulations that required women to wear the hijab. There was no multiplicity of local regulations and ordinances curtailing women’s freedom to dress, dance or ride pillion. To be sure, Indonesia was no paradise for women’s rights in the 1970s and 1980s. For example, the 1974 Marriage Law contained many discriminatory provisions, including the legalization of polygamy. But it also recognized women’s right to marital property. > > Although Indonesia’s dictator Suharto flouted many basic human rights during his 33-year-long reign, he established the Ministry of Women’s Empowerment in 1983. A year later he allowed Indonesia to sign and ratify the Convention to Eliminate All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, the first human rights convention the country signed. In October 1998, Suharto’s successor President B.J. Habibie formed the National Commission on Violence Against Women. In concert with the Ministry of Women’s Empowerment, the agency was explicitly tasked with integrating women’s rights as a key component of government policy formation. > > Indonesia’s democratization and decentralization after Suharto’s fall in 1998 has emboldened Islamic activists who have spearheaded the calls for laws and regulations that limit women’s rights. Ironically, the rise of discriminatory laws occurred despite the fact that Indonesia elected its first female president in 2001 and enacted a domestic violence law three years later. The 2010 gender equality bill, aimed at ending discrimination, remains stalled in parliament because of opposition from Islamist politicians. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/258 "2015-12-06T02:36:30Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > No, this is not make believe, we are discussing a real phenomenon, a new bizarre world where LGBT activists and groups of supposed feminists will side with chauvinistic bullies who promote second class citizenship for women, over a female human rights activist who campaigns against stoning of women and regularly stands up for the rights of migrants and refugees. WTF is all this stuff you just posted? Did you understand the question? **Sam Stone** claimed that “_People who will freak out and march against a couple who don’t want to sell a cake to a gay couple will turn around and reflexively defend Muslims when some of them advocate stoning a gay couple to death._” Nothing you posted is even remotely close to demonstrating this outrageous claim. I’m still waiting. All I get from your posting is evidence of sectarian rabble from all sides shouting at each other as usual. Namazie seems like an odd bird of strong views – a Central Committee member of the Worker-Communist Party of Iran, no less – who might arouse all kinds of opposition all over the political and religious spectrum. And this kind of crap is certainly not limited to Muslim activists: A federal appeals court ruled that local authorities in Dearborn, Mich., failed to protect the constitutional rights of Christian evangelical street preachers whose protest of the city’s Arab festival led to a mini-riot that ended when police ordered them away … The dispute involved a protest by a group called Bible Believers at Dearborn’s 2012 Arab International Festival, where they paraded with signs preaching hatred against Islam and brandished a severed pig’s head on a spike — seen as an insult to Muslims — to repel the Muslim crowd. [http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2015/10/28/appeals-court-defends-speech-rights-of-christians-who-protested-arab-festival/](http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2015/10/28/appeals-court-defends-speech-rights-of-christians-who-protested-arab-festival/) Arab Enclave in Michigan Grapples With Anti-Muslim Sentiment Dearborn finds itself a target for proselytizers, leading to clashes; loss of festival rankles many [http://www.wsj.com/articles/arab-enclave-in-michigan-grapples-with-anti-muslim-sentiment-1438972999](http://www.wsj.com/articles/arab-enclave-in-michigan-grapples-with-anti-muslim-sentiment-1438972999) Or how about a “blasphemous” play being canceled due to protests by religious extremists. [Christian extremists](https://www.indexoncensorship.org/2014/01/blasphemous-play-cancelled-uk-protests-religious-extremists/). I’m not saying Christian religions and Islam are equivalent, and they certainly dominate in radically different cultures. I’m just saying that the Islamophobic hysteria that is so predominant now is way over the top and totally uncalled for. It’s not about how some sectors of various shitty cultures carry on in the shit-holes they live in, it’s about curtailing bigotry in free and enlightened societies. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Egypt, where FGM is rampant and where the biggest university is virulently homophobic, has not been a backwater for thousands of years. Except that description seems like a pretty good characterization of a regressive backwater. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/259 "2015-12-06T03:56:24Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > WTF is all this stuff you just posted? Did you understand the question? **Sam Stone** claimed that “_People who will freak out and march against a couple who don’t want to sell a cake to a gay couple will turn around and reflexively defend Muslims when some of them advocate stoning a gay couple to death._” Nothing you posted is even remotely close to demonstrating this outrageous claim. I’m still waiting. Sam Stone was referring to the climate around this subject, where certain sections of the regressive left will defend gays or women from much smaller incidents of harassment, if the harassers or rhetoric come from political tribes that are their rivals. The recent incident with Maryam Namazie is a perfect and blatant example of this. You have supposed progressives siding with theocratic fascist thugs against a feminist human rights campaigner. > [@](#): > > All I get from your posting is evidence of sectarian rabble from all sides shouting at each other as usual. Namazie seems like an odd bird of strong views – a Central Committee member of the Worker-Communist Party of Iran, no less – who might arouse all kinds of opposition all over the political and religious spectrum. She has extreme views, the difference being that her views can be openly criticized on UK campuses, but Maryam must constantly battle against those who threaten, harass, and try to silence her when she criticizes the extreme parts of Islam and Islamism. > [@](#): > > And this kind of crap is certainly not limited to Muslim activists: > A federal appeals court ruled that local authorities in Dearborn, Mich., failed to protect the constitutional rights of Christian evangelical street preachers whose protest of the city’s Arab festival led to a mini-riot that ended when police ordered them away … The dispute involved a protest by a group called Bible Believers at Dearborn’s 2012 Arab International Festival, where they paraded with signs preaching hatred against Islam and brandished a severed pig’s head on a spike — seen as an insult to Muslims — to repel the Muslim crowd. > [http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2015/10/28/...arab-festival/](http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2015/10/28/...arab-festival/) This was a case of Muslims attacking non-Muslims in order to silence their crass but constitutionally protected religious speech, which is not a counterexample to what happened to Maryam, not in the least. It is another example of Muslims using force and intimidation to silence speech about religion that they disagree with. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying Christian religions and Islam are equivalent, and they certainly dominate in radically different cultures. I’m just saying that the Islamophobic hysteria that is so predominant now is way over the top and totally uncalled for. It’s not about how some sectors of various shitty cultures carry on in the shit-holes they live in, it’s about curtailing bigotry in free and enlightened societies. Islamophobia is a made up concept, a sort of Jedi mind trick resulting in the conflation of criticism of Islam and Islamism, which are ideas, with bigotry against humans. Islam is not a race of people, it is a stupid set of ideas, like Communism. Bigotry is targeted at immutable characteristics of people. Anti-Muslim bigotry certainly exists, but is not exemplified by criticism of Islam or Islamism, because Islamic ideas are not an immutable characteristic of Muslim humans. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/260 "2015-12-09T17:58:26Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > This was a case of Muslims attacking non-Muslims in order to silence their crass but constitutionally protected religious speech, which is not a counterexample to what happened to Maryam, not in the least. It is another example of Muslims using force and intimidation to silence speech about religion that they disagree with. That was one way to spin it. The “Bible believers” showed up in the middle of an Arab festival hurling anti-Muslim slurs and claiming that the participants would burn in hell. A dozen or so teens hurled eggs and insults at the “Bible Believers” and were then separated from the targets of their anger by adult organizers of the festival. The sheriff deputies told the “Bible Believers” to take their protest outside the area to reduce the probability of more conflict and the court ruled that the deputies should not have told the festival disrupters to leave. The actual organizers of the event made no effort to silence the “Bible Believers” and actually got between the group and the teens, telling the teens to leave the group alone. Portraying the incident as “Muslims attacking non-Muslims” or ludicrously claiming “_It is another example of Muslims using force and intimidation to silence speech about religion that they disagree with._” in the context of the actual events (a dozen teens and a dozen purported adults exchanging insults with a couple of eggs tossed in) is silly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=14)