# Look, Islam is not the enemy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644 "2015-11-26T16:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/21 "2015-11-26T21:49:54Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Islamic terrorists are our enemies. That’s fine. I’m all for bombing every last one of those into oblivion, because they really piss me off. And if more pop up, keep bombing them. I’m not particularly tolerant or non-violent when it comes to those fuckers, and I don’t bother with PC niceties when talking about them. The whole Paris thing literally makes me feel sick. But if you did that, it might mean Europe has to go to Russia for it’s gas, instead of to Qatar. Don’t ruin things, it gets cold in Europe. > **[Qatar–Turkey pipeline](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar-Turkey_pipeline)** > > The Qatar–Turkey pipeline was a proposal to build a natural gas pipeline from the Iranian–Qatari South Pars/North Dome Gas-Condensate field towards Turkey, where it could connect with the Nabucco pipeline to supply European customers as well as Turkey. One route to Turkey was via Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Syria, and another was through Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. Agence France-Presse claimed Syria's rationale for rejecting the Qatar proposal was "to protect the interests of \[its\] R Political... ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/22 "2015-11-26T21:50:14Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Because these sort of people — and many on this board — hate the white western patriarchal colonialist civilisation of their fathers much more than than they mislike those they consider it’s innocent victims, and strenuously believe that without the former the natural goodness of humanity will cause muslims, and everyone else, to spontaneously evolve to match liberals’ own perfection, all instantly discarding their present retrograde beliefs and demanding all the democratic/gender/anti-religious etc. policies of Berkeley. Here’s some more straw, stuff the other sleeve. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/23 "2015-11-26T21:56:48Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I don’t believe you 🙂 I’m gonna claim some overlap :). The mosque used to do a booming side business in magic potions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/24 "2015-11-26T22:01:45Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > But if you did that, it might mean Europe has to go to Russia for it’s gas, instead of to Qatar. Don’t ruin things, it gets cold in Europe. Winter is coming! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/25 "2015-11-26T22:13:39Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > When “the Troubles” in Ireland were at their worst, nobody hesitated to speak of “Catholic gunmen” or “Catholic terrorists,” so why be shy about calling ISIS “Muslim terrorists.” Does anybody in Ireland really care any more about the religious differences as such? AIUI, “Catholic” and “Protestant” are more in the nature of tribal or national identifiers than religious, thus it is understood you can speak of “Catholic terrorists” in Ireland without tarring the Poles or Italians with the same brush. WRT Muslims, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/26 "2015-11-26T22:21:00Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’m gonna claim some overlap :). The mosque used to do a booming side business in magic potions. I recall a panel from Larry Gonick’s _Cartoon History of the Universe,_ in a bit about the Islamization of parts of Africa – noting that “Their Islam was rarely pure, but mixed up with native beliefs” – a woman is sitting atop a big carved stone or wooden human head, holding a chicken and a knife, looking up and saying, “I’ll be right with you, God, just after I finish sprinkling chicken blood on the fetish!” I find myself wondering if, nowadays, Boko Haram has a problem with that sort of thing . . . ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/27 "2015-11-26T22:23:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does anybody in Ireland really care any more about the religious differences as such? AIUI, “Catholic” and “Protestant” are more in the nature of tribal or national identifiers than religious, thus it is understood you can speak of “Catholic terrorists” in Ireland without tarring the Poles or Italians with the same brush. WRT Muslims, not so much. Muslims aren’t a race, either. They come in many shades and aren’t all Arabs. On one hand, you’re right- many “religious” conflicts are not really about religion, while in others religion is just one of many factors. Even so, nobody in the news media worried about hurting my feelings by speaking of “Catholic” terrorists. Why the concern about hurting Muslims’ feelings? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/28 "2015-11-26T22:27:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Winter is coming! I can feel it right now. Do we want gas from an ever more fascist Russia, or from Islamic despots. Choices, choices… let’s insulate the loft instead. ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/29 "2015-11-26T23:18:12Z")
Comparisons to the Irish “freedom fighters” are so far from reality that a separate thread would be needed. The Catholic/Protestant divide was economic and Civil Rights based. The Catholics were living in a place that denied them equality. Membership of an “illegal organisation” was grounds for excommunication from the Catholic Church. In no way, shape or form was it a religious conflict. Seeking to circumscribe the rights of free speech and enquiry on religious grounds is a totally different question. All the more so if those who seek this censorship are happy to benefit from the results science has created. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/30 "2015-11-27T00:05:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Spinoff from [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=775314). Yes, Islam has some problematic and intolerant elements baked into its DNA, elements which will always make for a difficult relationship with the infidel world. But the last thing the world needs – and the very thing ISIS longs for, and the very thing a lot of RW Americans also seem to long for – is a “Clash of Civilizations” between Dar al-Islam and the West. For the time being ISIS, Taliban, Al Qaeda and numerous other Islamic terrorist groups are, like it or not, on one side of a Clash of Civilizations, the wavering and vulnerable Muslim “Street” is in the middle, and the rest of the world (including an unclear number of anti-terrorist Muslims) is on the other side. The West is by far the strongest player in the Clash, and the sooner it brings its strength to bear the better. The West’s second most dangerous enemy, and a strong second it is, is its own deluded irresolution. This irresolution compelled the US to depart from Iraq before it was safe to do so, and it is preventing Europe from accepting a significant military role, despite the obviousness of the need. And NB people love winners, and any success by the Islamic terrorist evildoers will win them plenty of recruits. In fact to anywhere earn a local draw against the overwhelming strength of the West might justifiably be considered a victory, and pay off in spades as a recruitment factor. ISIS might well by now have taken much more of Iraq, including Baghdad, and much more of Syria as well if not for the US bombing campaign. (If ISIS had been allowed these victories then the Clash of Civilizations might by now be so stark that even OP could not deny it) But ISIS is not going to be put out of business except by boots on the ground, and the West does not in its present irresolute state of mind state have the guts to do what it takes, which is to win a conventional war of conquest (yes, another one, this time against ISIS), and then stay for next goddam 50 years if we must. Such enterprises, world-wide, can only reasonably be a joint effort, but as weak-kneed as the US has now become, Europe is even worse, so don’t count on ISIS losing much ground, or any other significant positive development soon until ISIS commits a widespread many more European outrages on the scale of those in 11/15 France. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If Islam as such is the problem behind terrorism, then why don’t we see just as much terrorism coming out of Indonesia or Bangladesh as out of Syria? The ludicrous premise here seems to be that if Islamic terrorism is not _everywhere_ as great a problem as ISIS, then it is not actually a problem we need to worry about _anywhere_ else. But ISIS is only represents the most extreme player in a now mostly decentralized world-wide campaign of Islamic terror, that has been ongoing since before 9/11, and includes numerous significant incidents in Indonesia: [Wiki: List of terrorist incidents in Indonesia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Indonesia) Also, this Clash of Civilizations we are now embarked on is still in an early stage. Bangladesh has been relatively quiet and let us hope it remains so, but google “Terrorism Bangladesh” and you will see that not all commentary is optimistic. And I hate to think what might happen if the Islamic terrorist side of the clash were to win control of a large, oil-rich state, as ISIS almost did. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/31 "2015-11-27T00:11:19Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > For the time being ISIS, Taliban, Al Qaeda and numerous other Islamic terrorist groups are, like it or not, on one side of a Clash of Civilizations, the wavering and vulnerable Muslim “Street” is in the middle, and the rest of the world (including an unclear number of anti-terrorist Muslims) is on the other side. Hint: I don’t think it counts as a “Clash of Civilizations” if neither of the sides, as you describe them, constitute, you know, civilizations. All you said was: “There’s are conflicts. Some people are in them.” ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/32 "2015-11-27T00:18:03Z")
[QUOTE=Nelson Pike] But ISIS is only represents the most **extreme** player in a now mostly decentralized world-wide campaign of Islamic terror, that has been ongoing since before 9/11, and includes numerous significant incidents in Indonesia [/QUOTE] I should have said **presently the biggest** player. All of the Islamic terrorist groups are extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/33 "2015-11-27T00:26:36Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Hint: I don’t think it counts as a “Clash of Civilizations” if neither of the sides, as you describe them, constitute, you know, civilizations. > > All you said was: “There’s are conflicts. Some people are in them.” I take as a premise the existence of both Western civilization. and Islamic civilization. Anyone who wants to debate that can start another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/34 "2015-11-27T00:37:52Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > I take as a premise the existence of both Western civilization. and Islamic civilization. Oh, that’s fine. At least in certain contexts. But: > [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > […] ISIS, Taliban, Al Qaeda and numerous other Islamic terrorist groups […] does not equal either of those. Furthermore, > [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > […] the wavering and vulnerable Muslim “Street” […] also does not equal either of those. Hey, and guess what: > [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > […] the rest of the world (including an unclear number of anti-terrorist Muslims) […] isn’t either of those either. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/35 "2015-11-27T01:02:00Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Oh, that’s fine. At least in certain contexts. But: > > does not equal either of those. Furthermore, > > also does not equal either of those. Hey, and guess what: > > isn’t either of those either. All those listed are part of Islamic Civilization, obviously. Equally obvious is the fact that the Clash does not depend for its existence on the commitment to the struggle of each civilization’s entire population. Many may even join the other side: The ancient Greco-Persian Wars were a Clash of Civilizations, were they not? Well, in the culminating war Alexander faced 10s of thousands of Greek mercenaries in Persian employ. I can give you other historical examples if you want them. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/36 "2015-11-27T01:21:17Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > […] the rest of the world (including an unclear number of anti-terrorist Muslims) […] > [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > All those listed are part of Islamic Civilization, obviously. In the interest of protecting myself against finnickyness, only the “anti-terror Muslims” are part of Islamic civilization. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/37 "2015-11-27T01:23:42Z")
It’s a clash of pipelines rather than civilizations. ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/38 "2015-11-27T01:27:52Z")
[QUOTE= finnickyness.[/QUOTE] Are you sure of your spelling here? ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/39 "2015-11-27T01:28:47Z")
> [@fire\_hazard](#): > > Are you sure of your spelling here? No. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/40 "2015-11-27T01:30:37Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > The ancient Greco-Persian Wars were a Clash of Civilizations, were they not? No. No, they weren’t. They were wars between a coalition of Greek city states and the Persian Empire, over some pretty specific stuff. Details matter. They were not wars between “The West” (singular) and some vaguely imagined demonic “East”. Speaking of Alexander: Most Greeks at the time (yes, I know, it’s my ballpark estimate) hated his guts, just as they hated his dad before him. The first thing that happened after he died was a Greek rebellion against Macedon. And ask any party in those conflicts (or, well, their descendants) how they felt when the Romans showed up later on. If you try selling them your “East vs West” metanarrative, they’ll probably tell you to get stuffed. “Western Civilization” doesn’t have much of a track record for being a unified thing. (And I’m not even out the classical age yet! Oh, boy, there’s a lot coming up, get ready.) Neither does the East, for that matter. Oh, and as for “Islamic civilization”, it obviously won’t be invented for several hundred years, so if you ask the dudes in classical antiquity about that, they’ll just look at you funny. Clashing of civilizations, especially between the “Good West” and the “Evil East”, isn’t really how history works. There are conflicts. Some of them involve some people from over here, depending on your definition of “here”. Others involve some people from over there, depending on your definition of “there”. Some of the time some of the people over there are on a different side from some of the people over here (although mostly not). Hey, speaking of the Persians: Cut them some slack, they ended the Babylonian captivity, when Cyrus took Babylon. They get great press in the Bible. I mean, I assume you count the Bible as part of “Western Civilization”. Most people seem to, although it’s totally a Middle Eastern export, so who knows how that works. But I digress. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=3)