# Look, Islam is not the enemy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644 "2015-11-26T16:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/381 "2015-12-22T01:38:07Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > How many of those apply to Muslim women in the US? Any of them could potentially apply if imposed by her family or community, or if she ends up in a place that imposes sharia law because she gets kidnapped and taken there by her family or deported by Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/382 "2015-12-22T02:07:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > More ignorance of history. Misogyny? Islam provided more rights and more protection for women than did Christianity when it was founded. Well there’s the problem in a nutshell. You’re trying to argue what “was” in response to what “is”. Islam, like your argument, is stuck in the 7th century. The violence we see today is based on the same belief that any challenge or dismissal of the religion is a serious crime. It is based on the direct words from God as handed down to Mohammad and those words are backed up by his violent legacy. Sadly a significant number of Muslims don’t share your fuzzy bunny politically correct fantasy world. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/383 "2015-12-22T03:59:05Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > [Pakistan’s blasphemy law is a relentless guillotine for minorities](http://leftfootforward.org/2014/11/pakistans-blasphemy-law-is-a-relentless-guillotine-for-minorities/) Holy fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/384 "2015-12-22T05:00:52Z")
I would challenge posters who do not think Islam is the enemy to lay out how the Qur’an and Hadith writings do not fundamentally teach oppression of women and non-believers. Muslims are people. They aren’t the enemy. Islam is the enemy. Were we to institute Islamic teachings as a way to govern our society, we would move back a few hundred years, and this is exactly what has happened in most Muslim-majority countries where the Muslims have not stood up decided to forgo the teachings of Islam as far as how to govern. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/385 "2015-12-22T08:21:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I think if that is okey-dokey, then we should shut down Christian churches who advocate god’s law above the Constitution. If they won’t swear that the Constitution is greater than god, then they should be treated like terrorists, before they kill us all. God is greater than all things the constitution is made by man and has its weaknesses BUT remember it is based on Gods Law ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/386 "2015-12-22T08:47:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [They already have](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_States): I am a Christian, I am against abortion for convenience, I am against the antiabortion mob who think that it is right for them to bring violence and death to those who disagree with them . God commanded thou shalt not kill. By committing murder they break Gods law and in doing so cease to be Christians in the eyes of God as they have not followed the teachings of Jesus on which the Christian faith is based. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/387 "2015-12-22T09:06:49Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > God is greater than all things the constitution is made by man and has its weaknesses BUT remember it is based on Gods Law Jefferson made a new Bible that was better than God’s bible because he took out most of the mean and stupid stuff that God put in there. They both thought having slaves was acceptable, though. Charlie Sheen seems more of a morally upstanding man than both of them. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/388 "2015-12-22T10:04:01Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > God is greater than all things the constitution is made by man and has its weaknesses BUT remember it is based on Gods Law Huh. Where are the stone tablets that were handed down to the Constitutional Convention on display? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/389 "2015-12-22T11:17:45Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > God is greater than all things the constitution is made by man and has its weaknesses BUT remember it is based on Gods Law The constitution of the United States of America is based on God’s law? Prove it. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/390 "2015-12-22T11:22:26Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Jefferson made a new Bible that was better than God’s bible because he took out most of the mean and stupid stuff that God put in there. They both thought having slaves was acceptable, though. Charlie Sheen seems more of a morally upstanding man than both of them. As Christian my Holy scripture is the teaching of Jesus in the New Testament ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/391 "2015-12-22T12:06:49Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > God is greater than all things the constitution is made by man and has its weaknesses BUT remember it is based on Gods Law And that is why we can’t have nice things. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/392 "2015-12-22T15:37:42Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > How many non-Muslims have been targeted and killed by Muslims in America? How many Muslims have been targeted and killed by non-Muslims? You are doing everything you can to avoid discussing this ratio. There have been more Muslims _targeted_ (more individual attacks). If there have been fewer Muslims (and [non-Muslims that bigots think are Muslim](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/robber-shoots-clerk-terrorist_5670a826e4b0dfd4bcbfdb37)) killed, it certainly hasn’t been for [lack](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/12/california-mosque-firebombed-investigation-no-suspect) [of](http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/local/2015/12/11/two-muslim-women-attacked-in-tampa/77137026/) [trying](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-reviewing-shooting-muslim-taxi-driver-pittsburgh-suspect-custody-n474851). > [@](#): > > The much bigger death count of Jihadist terror makes it a much bigger deal for anyone who values human life above the public image of Islam. Fuck, _toddlers_ have killed more people in America in 2015 than Muslim terrorists have! If “bigger death count” means something is a bigger threat to you such that it’s practically all you can talk about, then you’re kinda focusing on the wrong group. To repeat myself, “I rather doubt that ‘deadliness’ and ‘prevalence’ are the reasons you are so vocal about Muslim attacks and so dismissive of attacks on Muslims”. > [@](#): > > Now you are just straight up making things up. Like, I didn’t post what you are “quoting” at all. You should think long and hard about a position so indefensible that you have to resort to blatant fabrication to save face or to avoid changing your mind. What do you even hope to accomplish with your falsehoods? Do you think that since the post you are replying to is so buried by now that no one will notice or call you out? You should be aware that the little icon that appears next to my user name when you quote me is a link back to my post, and of course I can[link to it here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18947984&postcount=316)for convenience too. Or I could simply quote myself from the original post that you are trying to twist. Here is exactly what I said: “How many Muslims have been targeted and killed by non-Muslims for their faith in America? In America, how many non-Muslims have been killed by Muslims? Once you have calculated that ratio, you may begin to understand the imbalance of outrage.” If you are going to bother responding to the question, just go ahead and answer it, rather than repeating your gross misrepresentations. What you said: “Once you have calculated that ratio, you may begin to understand the imbalance of outrage”. How I described it: “calling the lack of attention paid to these violent hate crimes ‘understandable’” What you said: “Your Salon article cites a CAIR study. CAIR, who is a tentacle of the Muslim Brotherhood and is on the UAE list of designated terrorists, regularly includes trivial instances of harassment, such as anonymous emails, in their lists.” How I described it: “minimizing shootings and firebombings by implying they’re exaggerations [at] best”. I leave it up to others to decide if I misleadingly paraphrased you. > [@](#): > > I am not deriding Muslims for cherry picking. Of course you are. That was the entire point of quoting Khuldune at some length like you did, to assert that terrorist groups have a better understanding of what “Islam” teaches than liberal Muslims do, and that the liberal Muslims’ nonviolent interpretation of scripture is both illegitimate (because all the nonviolent verses of the Qur’an have been purportedly abrogated) and morally wrong because liberals aren’t abandoning scripture entirely. > [@](#): > > Interesting how, when a female Muslim critic of Islamism objects to receiving death threats, she is “whining”. Yes, she’s whining not about “death threats”, but about criticism she’s received by websites like Loonwatch (which certainly never threatened her), and things like _Robert fucking Spencer_ being called a “vicious hate preacher” and an “Internet sociopath” (which, you know, he _is_). And there are plenty of “female Muslim critics of Islamism” who don’t take the side of the likes of Spencer, such as Amina Wadud, Mona Eltahawy, Zainah Anwar, Marina Mahathir, Mulki Al-Sharmani, Ziba Mir-Hosseini, and Kecia Ali. Funny how you never quote or cite any of _them_, though. > [@](#): > > When other Muslims are threatened by (presumably) non-Muslims you take a different tone. People getting shot and occupied mosques being firebombed are not “threats” or the kind of anonymous insults posted on the internet that Nomani complains about. And the fact that you try to compare those things, as if they even are remotely alike, in order to minimize the actual physical violence being carried out against completely innocent Muslims solely for the crime of being Muslim in America speaks volumes. > [@](#): > > Right, it is obvious by now that you reserve the bulk of your antipathy for those who are critical of Islam and Islamism, even when they are Muslim women. > You attack a lone Muslim critic of these radical ideologies, I haven’t said a single thing about Nomani’s criticism of radical ideologies. My antipathy towards her comes, as I’ve specifically said, from her support of Islam-haters like Robert Spencer and her siding with their bigoted positions like profiling and boycotting TV shows like All-American Muslim. And since my _own_ status and criticism of those ideologies certainly doesn’t seem to endear me and my opinions to you, you can go ahead and stop with the cargo-cult identity politics now. > [@](#): > > What I \*know \*is that Jihadist terrorists keep killing dozens and hundreds of people the the US and Europe, and that many Muslims’ primary response is to accuse anyone critical of the ideology which motivates these mass murderers of bigotry. We don’t accuse you of bigotry because you’re critical of the ideology which motivates these mass murderers, but because you think the “ideology” which motivates these mass murderers is not their particular hateful, twisted interpretation of Islam, but _Islam itself._ > [@](#): > > You still have not had any response at all to the actual contents of Raheel Raza’s [video](https://www.facebook.com/ClarionProject/videos/916048778462927/?theater), you are simply objecting to it’s very existence. I don’t give a shit about “argumentum ad Facebook video posted by crackpot liars” (it’s a favorite of conspiracy theorists on message boards everywhere). If you want me to respond to Clarion’s hateful crap, you can summarize it, or (better yet) link to their actual source document for this video. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/393 "2015-12-22T15:42:55Z")
Going right out of my depth but I think I remember reading about the involvement of Mormons in the writing the constitution ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/394 "2015-12-22T16:18:12Z")
> [@A'isha](#): > > What you said: “Once you have calculated that ratio, you may begin to understand the imbalance of outrage”. How I described it: “calling the lack of attention paid to these violent hate crimes ‘understandable’” > > What you said: “Your Salon article cites a CAIR study. CAIR, who is a tentacle of the Muslim Brotherhood and is on the UAE list of designated terrorists, regularly includes trivial instances of harassment, such as anonymous emails, in their lists.” How I described it: “minimizing shootings and firebombings by implying they’re exaggerations [at] best”. > > I leave it up to others to decide if I misleadingly paraphrased you. For what it’s worth, I think the first example is a very slightly misleading paraphrase and the second example is an _extremely_ misleading paraphrase. Hank Beecher didn’t imply that shootings and firebombings are exaggerations. His point was that they beef up their lists of “hate crimes” with reams of trivia that no sane person would consider serious. > [@A'isha](#): > > I don’t give a shit about “argumentum ad Facebook video posted by crackpot liars” (it’s a favorite of conspiracy theorists on message boards everywhere). Amnesty International, CNN, the BBC, the Guardian, the Bipartisan Policy Centre’s Homeland Security Project, the Daily Telegraph, and the Pew Research Organisation - from whom the video’s numbers are taken - are “crackpot liars”, now? I’m curious, who _isn’t_ a crackpot liar? > [@A'isha](#): > > If you want me to respond to Clarion’s hateful crap, you can summarise it, or (better yet) link to their actual source document for this video. Why would he need to summarise it? Surely you’ve watched the video for yourself. I mean, if you’re comfortable dismissing it as “hateful crap”, you _must_ have watched it, right? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/395 "2015-12-22T16:19:28Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Going right out of my depth but I think I remember reading about the involvement of Mormons in the writing the constitution you’re not only out of your depth - you’ve gone over the edge. The Mormon Church wasn’t founded until ~1830 - and “Joe Smith Jr.” wasn’t even around to discuss the Consitution, having not been born until 1805. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/396 "2015-12-22T16:34:51Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > God is greater than all things the constitution is made by man and has its weaknesses BUT remember it is based on Gods Law [Not really.](http://www.thenation.com/article/our-godless-constitution/) ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/397 "2015-12-22T17:10:41Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > For what it’s worth, I think the first example is a very slightly misleading paraphrase and the second example is an _extremely_ misleading paraphrase. Yes, you would think that. > [@](#): > > Hank Beecher didn’t imply that shootings and firebombings are exaggerations. His point was that they beef up their lists of “hate crimes” with reams of trivia that no sane person would consider serious. And since the list didn’t include “reams of trivia” but instead included things like shootings and firebombings, the only reason to make such a claim about the “reams of trivia” is to avoid talking about the shootings and firebombings and imply that the increase in violence against Muslims doesn’t, in fact, include serious things like shootings and firebombings but is instead only a bunch of “trivia” that can be dismissed out of hand. > [@](#): > > Amnesty International, CNN, the BBC, the Guardian, the Bipartisan Policy Centre’s Homeland Security Project, the Daily Telegraph, and the Pew Research Organisation - from whom the video’s numbers are taken - And I’m _totally_ sure that any use of such sources by Clarion is entirely in context and not at all used to come to conclusions entirely unwarranted by what they actually say. Because it’s not like they [have a history of that sort of thing](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/09/18/donald-trump-and-the-terrorist-training-camps-conspiracy-theory-explained/) (my favorite was when [they claimed](http://www.alternet.org/media/four-absurd-and-dangerous-lies-fox-news-told-about-muslims-week) Dearborn, Michigan was a _shari’ah_-ruled “no-go zone” despite, you know, _[reality](http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/neal-rubin/2015/02/04/ham-liquor-dearborn-sharia-law/22907225/)_). > [@](#): > > Why would he need to summarise it? Because I don’t have the time or energy to watch random Facebook videos posted by lying hate groups, and as I said already linking to random videos posted by crackpots is a favorite “argument” of conspiracy theorists all over the internet, and you’re going to need to have something a bit more convincing than “click here to watch this video exposing the _Truth_ that the Mainstream Media doesn’t want to talk about!” if you want me to waste my time watching your nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/398 "2015-12-22T18:33:43Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Any of them could potentially apply if … Seriously? > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > …, or if she ends up in a place that imposes sharia law because she gets kidnapped and taken there by her family … :smack: (Often bigotry simply ends up sounding silly.) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/399 "2015-12-22T19:52:27Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Seriously? Yes, seriously, Muslim families and communities sometimes[impose Islamic codes of conduct](http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/crime/man-arrested-on-suspicion-of-abusing-hickman-student/article_5f48a9cb-4382-5442-937e-ad54f1c88855.html) and punishments themselves. Sometimes the treatment is even worse than this horrific case, for example honor killings. Use Google, look it up. And many of the things on the list are part of Islamic source texts, which are _obviously_ taught to Muslims in America. > [@](#): > > :smack: > > (Often bigotry simply ends up sounding silly.) And ignorance ends up sounding head smackingly dumb, and disgustingly dismissive when we are discussing real world problems with such horrible consequences. Muslim girls and women get taken from Western countries against their will, it is such a major problem in Britain that women’s charity have begun advising them to [hide spoons in their underwear](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/15/women-forced-marriage-spoon-underwear)in order to set off metal detectors in airports as a last ditch effort to buy protective agencies enough time to help them. It also happens in[Australia](http://www.news.com.au/national/judge-blocks-14-year-old-girls-arranged-marriage/story-e6frfkvr-1225922933605) and the [Netherlands](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/21/what-its-like-for-a-muslim-woman-whose-family-wants-her-dead/) and it happens [in America](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/jesse-bender-missing-california-teen-runs-forced-pakistan/story?id=13050934). I don’t know why you think these practices stop all of a sudden when Muslim families come to America. There is no reason to think this other than incredible naivety or a reluctance to be critical of others’ [cultural and religious practices](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/04/23/phoenix-woman-in-arranged-muslim-marriage-allegedly-raped-beaten-by-groom-to-be.html) when they are minorities. > [@](#): > > A marriage contract between two valley Muslim families ended with the groom-to-be behind bars. > > Officers say the arranged bride, a teenager was kidnapped, beaten, and sexually assaulted after refusing to go thru with the marriage. > > Both families are from Somalia and police say they are under investigation. > > The age of the victim has not been released, but we’re told she is 18 or 19-years-old. > > Police say her family may have forced her into the arranged Groom’s apartment where she was then raped. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/400 "2015-12-22T20:33:31Z")
Aisha you exhibit a textbook example of Islamic supremacy. > [@A\_isha](#): > > There have been more Muslims _targeted_ (more individual attacks). If there have been fewer Muslims (and [non-Muslims that bigots think are Muslim](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/robber-shoots-clerk-terrorist_5670a826e4b0dfd4bcbfdb37)) killed, it certainly hasn’t been for [lack](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/12/california-mosque-firebombed-investigation-no-suspect) [of](http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/local/2015/12/11/two-muslim-women-attacked-in-tampa/77137026/) [trying](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-reviewing-shooting-muslim-taxi-driver-pittsburgh-suspect-custody-n474851). What do you mean\* if\* there have been fewer Muslims killed than non-Muslism killed by Jihadists? Why are you so reluctant to admit that the death toll is overwhelmingly one sided? > [@](#): > > Fuck, _toddlers_ have killed more people in America in 2015 than Muslim terrorists have! If “bigger death count” means something is a bigger threat to you such that it’s practically all you can talk about, then you’re kinda focusing on the wrong group. Right, right, teams of armed Jihadists murdering scores of people on a regular basis is no big deal to you, we get it. You are more concerned with protecting the image of Islam. > [@](#): > > To repeat myself, “I rather doubt that ‘deadliness’ and ‘prevalence’ are the reasons you are so vocal about Muslim attacks and so dismissive of attacks on Muslims”. And I will repeat that your imaginings are both wrong and irrelevant. > [@](#): > > What you said: “Once you have calculated that ratio, you may begin to understand the imbalance of outrage”. How I described it: “calling the lack of attention paid to these violent hate crimes ‘understandable’” There has not been a lack of attention paid to the hate crimes, so your statement makes no sense. There has been much more attention paid to crimes in which people have been murdered. Often the Jihadists attacks are committed by teams which conspire to murder (San Bernadino, Boston, Texas Mohammed art showing attack, 9-11), rather than lone whackos, which is another reason that they are more notable, in addition to the vastly higher death toll. > [@](#): > > What you said: “Your Salon article cites a CAIR study. CAIR, who is a tentacle of the Muslim Brotherhood and is on the UAE list of designated terrorists, regularly includes trivial instances of harassment, such as anonymous emails, in their lists.” How I described it: “minimizing shootings and firebombings by implying they’re exaggerations [at] best”. No, their lists are fluffed up by the addition of trivial incidents, which shows how CAIR’s agenda is to portray Muslims in America as victims, and to communicate the false narrative that attacks on Muslims by others motivated by hatred of Muslims is somehow equal in scale or of greater importance than the many deadly attacks by Muslims against non-Muslims. > [@](#): > > Of course you are. That was the entire point of quoting Khuldune at some length like you did, to assert that terrorist groups have a better understanding of what “Islam” teaches than liberal Muslims do, and that the liberal Muslims’ nonviolent interpretation of scripture is both illegitimate (because all the nonviolent verses of the Qur’an have been purportedly abrogated) and morally wrong because liberals aren’t abandoning scripture entirely. No, the point of that is to critique those like you who refuse to acknowledge that Islamic source texts and traditions themselves play a large part in Islamist violence. > [@](#): > > Yes, she’s whining not about “death threats”, but about criticism she’s received by websites like Loonwatch (which certainly never threatened her), and things like _Robert fucking Spencer_ being called a “vicious hate preacher” and an “Internet sociopath” (which, you know, he _is_). No I don’t know since I don’t read anything from him. And Asra has received death threats, and the article in question that you referred to as “whining” did mention them. Note how strongly your vulgar wrath bursts forth when dealing with someone critical of Islam, every association or thing she has ever written comes under scrutiny when a Muslim woman criticizes Islam. Yet CAIR’s association with the Muslim Brotherhood, a powerful, international, theocratic, fascist force with all kinds of horrible policies and statements does not concern you one bit. This is the face of Islamic supremacy. > [@](#): > > And there are plenty of “female Muslim critics of Islamism” who don’t take the side of the likes of Spencer, such as Amina Wadud, Mona Eltahawy, Zainah Anwar, Marina Mahathir, Mulki Al-Sharmani, Ziba Mir-Hosseini, and Kecia Ali. Good for them, but it is also important to openly criticize Islam itself, regardless of your inability to tolerate it, let alone participate in it. > [@](#): > > People getting shot and occupied mosques being firebombed are not “threats” or the kind of anonymous insults posted on the internet that Nomani complains about. And the fact that you try to compare those things, as if they even are remotely alike What I was comparing them to was the similar anonymous threats that CAIR included on their list. And since the threats against critics of Islam are carried out in deadly fashion much more often, the threats against her should be taken much more seriously. > [@](#): > > , in order to minimize the actual physical violence being carried out against completely innocent Muslims solely for the crime of being Muslim in America speaks volumes. There is no “minimization” going on at all. The violence is minimal, in comparison to the murders by Islamist terrorists. That you can not acknowledge this indicates that you place higher value on the image of and submission to Islam over the lives of non-Muslims. Unfortunately you have a lot of company. However not all of us, and thankfully not all Muslims, share you whacked set of priorities. > [@](#): > > I haven’t said a single thing about Nomani’s criticism of radical ideologies. Correction, you did say something about it. You called it “bullshit”. You did not respond in any substantial way to her criticisms though, that much is true. > [@](#): > > We don’t accuse you of bigotry because you’re critical of the ideology which motivates these mass murderers, but because you think the “ideology” which motivates these mass murderers is not their particular hateful, twisted interpretation of Islam, but _Islam itself._ In other words, I avoid your own personal taboo and the taboo so common among Muslims to exclude Islam from criticism. That is not bigotry. I just don’t choose to participate in the taboo. Islam is a set of ideas, not a group of people, and it is not bigoted to criticize ideas. Dangerously bad ideas, especially, should be criticized. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=21)