# Look, Islam is not the enemy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644 "2015-11-26T16:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/421 "2015-12-23T19:54:48Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > You know who _was_ under fire? Sam Harris and Bill Maher, on the episode of Real Time that Aslan was invited onto CNN to rebut. They had to make _their_ points while Ben Affleck was yelling and screaming at them, but somehow, I doubt you’d be as accommodating of their statements as you are of Aslan’s. Maher is a clown who I ignore on general principles. And I cut Harris the same slack for his TV appearances as I cut Aslan for his TV appearances. Harris has made plenty of stupid and just plain wrong statements in writing on his website and in his books, which are what I focus on when it comes to him. > [@](#): > > And what Bill Maher’s loony opinions on vaccines have to do with anything is a mystery to me. That would be part of _why_ Maher is a clown who I ignore on general principles. > [@](#): > > I’m _not_ generalising about an entire country. Aslan said, “In Indonesia, women are 100% equal to men”. Period. For that statement to be true, women would need to be 100% equal to men _everywhere_ in Indonesia. Get back with me when you figure out how language and especially colloqualisms work. > [@](#): > > P.S. - You still haven’t told me what you want to see from me to convince you that the numbers cited in the Clarion video you refuse to watch are true. Number they claim -\> source for that number -\> conclusion they draw from that number. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/422 "2015-12-23T20:22:47Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > The decision also noted that the only video evidence was provided by the Bible Believers themselves. It’s rather notable that at the circuit court level, the level at which the Bible Believers’ were ruled against, both sides filed video evidence, and the court’s decision in that case noted specifically that “law enforcement officials are seen trying to quell the crowd and stem the violent conduct”. > > And I’ll note that even the minimal actions taken by the police as described in the district court decision contradicts Clarion’s descriptions. No it does not, the police failed to intervene and protect the constitutional rights of the protesters, as the decision of the court noted. > [@](#): > > As the decision you cited notes, the messages on their signs and t-shirts included things like “Islam Is A Religion of Blood and Murder” and “Turn or Burn” they carried a severed pig’s head on a pole, and > > “The first speaker told the crowd that they should not follow “a false prophet,” who was nothing but an “unclean drawing” and “a pedophile.” (Id. at 00:01:40). He continued by telling what was by then a group made up of approximately thirty teenagers that “[y]our religion will send you to hell.” (Id. at 00:03:30). Tensions started to rise as a few youths became incensed after the speaker taunted, “You believe in a prophet who is a pervert. Your prophet who wants to molest a child,” and “God will reject you. God will put your religion into hellfire when you die.” (Id. at 00:03:56, 00:04:38).” Again there message is of no relevance to the question of whether they should have been attacked for it, or to the duty of the police to protect them. > [@](#): > > That’s “mild” to you, is it? Well, anything to stick up for the liars at Clarion, I suppose. Standing and speaking is a mild way of expressing an opinion. Again, Clarion appears to to have asserted that their expression was mild, not that the views they were expressing were. People stand in public and say all kinds of things all the time without getting attacked. Most people can ignore messages that offend them. You appear to share the opinion of ISIS that blasphemy against Islam is a special case that excuses violent behavior. > [@](#): > > That’s nice. But what does that have to do with Clarion’s definition of “no-go zones” as “effectively off-limits not only to non-Muslims but to the law enforcement and security forces of the country as well…place[s] governed by Islamic law (sharia)”? Again, the [video who’s message you are incapable of confronting](https://www.facebook.com/ClarionProject/videos/916048778462927/?theater) has nothing to do with no go zones. > [@](#): > > Is Dearborn effectively off-limits to both non-Muslims and law enforcement officials? Is it governed by _shari’ah_? Yes or no, **Hank Beecher**? Again, on that day the police assisted the crowd in enforcing the prohibition against blaspheming Islam. > [@](#): > > Does that mean the ruling of the circuit court (per their legal and Constitutional authority) still meant that Dearborn was a place “where the Constitutional law no longer is enforced”? Or does the rule of the Constitution only return when a court rules the way you want them to despite the case having made its way through several levels of the standard judicial and appeals process, the way all such cases do? > > Had the District Court ruled the other way, would Dearborn still be a “no-go” wasteland where _shari’ah_ rules and the Constitution no longer applies at all? If Dearborn appeals and the District Court decision gets overturned by the Supreme Court, will the rule of the Constitution suddenly be stripped away from Dearborn again and it’ll be returned to said “no-go” wasteland where _shari’ah_ rules and the Constitution no longer applies at all? You sure are spending a lot of effort on that one thing that the group said that one time, in order to avoid discussing the role of Islam in jihadist violence. > [@](#): > > Or maybe, just _maybe_, Dearborn is and always has been subject to the exact same US laws and Constitutional protections as everywhere else in the country, as shown by the fact that the legal, judicial, and Constitutional process established to decide such matters was fully applied in Dearborn and to both plaintiffs and defendants since day one, making Clarion’s assertions a gigantic steaming load of crap and your defense of their lies arrant nonsense? On that day the constitution was not enforced. > [@](#): > > A) I note that he only publicly backtracked from his characterization after attention was brought to the fact that it was a bunch of bullshit, B) he still doubled down on the claim, only modifying it from places non-Muslims and police _can’t_ go to places they _don’t want_ to go, then as “evidence” cites non-evidence like Rotherham, and C) perhaps you can link to Clarion’s own withdrawal of their characterization of “no-go zones” in light of Pipes’ own “clarification” of the term. Again the video you refuse to watch or comment on has nothing to do with no go zones. You are just using the issue to divert the conversation and prevent discussion critical of Islam, similar to the Muslims in Dearborn who threw things at the protesters to prevent expression of opinions critical to Islam. > [@](#): > > He actually doesn’t explain it - not only his only mention of Christian FGM/C was in Eritrea and Ethiopia (and he never once acknowledges that 3/4 of Christian women in Egypt undergo the process), his only suggested explanation for Egypt’s high FGM/C rate after dismissing “African tribal culture” is the endorsement of the Muslim Brotherhood of the practice. Which, as I said, may explain why Muslim women there undergo FGM/C, but certainly doesn’t explain a single thing about its prevalence among Christian women. Again, his mention of the Muslim Brotherhood’s endorsement of FGM was to counter Alsan’s false narrative that FGM was entirely due to African tribal culture. He did not claim that Islamic justifications were the only reason it is practiced, merely that they were one of the reasons. I see you still have no comment on [Raheel Raza’s video](https://www.facebook.com/ClarionProject/videos/916048778462927/?theater), or Reza Aslan’s lies. You only seem interested in detailed examinations of everything ever said and done by critics of Islam, in order to dismiss them entirely and avoid discussing or even considering their message. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/423 "2015-12-24T10:29:21Z")
It strikes me as a purely academic matter, akin to wondering how many white people are racist. Whether the number is 5%, 10%, 20%, or just 1%, the fact is, most minorities can report that they’ve been victims of white racism at least once in their lives(and in most cases, many, many times). So how do we deal with white racism? Do we start with, “The vast majority of white people are not racist?” No, we start from the perspective that the victims of racism are more important to help than the innocent white people. It seems to me that the problem of victims of Islamic extremism are a more pressing problem than whether or not mainstream Muslims experience suspicion and discomfort. Jews can’t wear their Stars of David in Sweden because authorities think that it’s less important to protect minorities from violent persecution by other minorities than to avoid hurting feelings. > **[Jews in Sweden are afraid to be known as Jews](https://www.haaretz.com/2004-02-10/ty-article/jews-in-sweden-are-afraid-to-be-known-as-jews/0000017f-e638-d62c-a1ff-fe7b45d30000)** > > Daniel Schechner, a 21-year-old law student from Stockholm, makes sure to conceal even the slightest hint of his Jewishness when he goes out in public. The situation in France is even worse: > **[Fear on Rise, Jews in France Weigh an Exit (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/world/europe/fear-on-rise-jews-in-france-weigh-an-exit.html?_r=0)** > > Unsure of their future in France, French Jews are increasingly willing to consider conflict-torn Israel as a safer refuge. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/424 "2015-12-24T12:16:01Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > I keep waiting for a specific and widespread rejection of politicians in Alabama (especially the Chief Justice of our state supreme court) of the principle that religious law supersedes our secular governance. > > I’m not holding my breath. What has this to do with my position that the tenets of Islam are the enemies of the principles which drive a western enlightened democracy for its public law? We have two opposing principles here. 1. Islam (and any other religious text, including the Bible): Public law should reflect as closely as possible what the Almighty has revealed to men in holy texts. 2.Secular governance: Public law can draw on lessons from all past thinking, including religious texts, but where those texts are antithetical to collectively-derived secular principles, they should be ignored. Islam, as a collection of tenets laid down in the Qur’an and Hadith writings, is an enemy of our collectively-derived secular principles with respect to some of our most basic principles in the western world. It is at absolute odds with specific principles such as the freedom to publicly ridicule religious tenets and icons, and at absolute odds with practical considerations such as how to avoid oppressing women. Witness what has happened in the Muslim majority world where it is easier to make Islam the law of the land. Wherever and however the faithful of any religion try to advance their religious law in any manner that steps on the toes of the next person over, and those religious laws are at odds with secular public law, they are advancing a paradigm which is an enemy of democratically-derived secular law. I have no idea what you are talking about with this strawman about Alabama or SCOTUS. But for anyone arguing that texts like the Qur’an, the Hadith or the Old Testament do not represent an enemy of western democracy, I suggest reviewing a summary of the basic tenets laid down in them. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/425 "2015-12-24T12:25:35Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > As the Al Jazeera article points out, these developments are recent in Indonesia. And Islamophobes _love_ to cite laws and practices in Aceh and pretend that they’re applicable across the entirety of Indonesia. Aceh is a small province (containing just 1.6% of Indonesia’s population) that had fought an insurgent war against the Indonesian government from 1976 to 2004, and as part of the peace treaty ending the revolt Aceh was granted governmental and legal autonomy, which is why more restrictive laws can be passed there, but those laws are specific only to Aceh. > > If you enjoy drinking games, every time you see an Islamophobe cite something happening in Indonesia, take a drink if it’s actually something happening in Aceh. Make sure your liver is in proper shape beforehand, though, because you’ll be taking a _lot_ of drinks. Dun’t be riddikilus defending Indonesia as some kind of live and let live bastion… In which part of any Muslim majority nation–including Indonesia–can I get by with publishing and freely distributing a newspaper which front-pages a daily cartooon mocking Mohammed, his deluded messages, and the principles for which the Qur’an stands? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/426 "2015-12-24T13:27:35Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > 1. Islam (and any other religious text, including the Bible): > Public law should reflect as closely as possible what the Almighty has revealed to men in holy texts. We have candidates for President right now who believe that god’s law supersedes public law, and that the Constitution should be changed to respect god’s law. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/427 "2015-12-24T14:05:32Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > We have candidates for President right now who believe that god’s law supersedes public law, and that the Constitution should be changed to respect god’s law. “Candidate for President” is not a position that grants a person any kind of legal authority. It means they _want_ legal authority, but that doesn’t mean they’ll get it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/428 "2015-12-24T14:17:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > “Candidate for President” is not a position that grants a person any kind of legal authority. It means they _want_ legal authority, but that doesn’t mean they’ll get it. Which does nothing to contradict my point, that Muslims are not the only ones who think their religious law supersedes public law. In case you haven’t been reading the news, there are many public officials who defy public law to impose their Christian religious beliefs under the authority of their public office. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/429 "2015-12-24T15:21:25Z")
And the number of Christian theocracies in the world vs. the number of Muslim theocracies? Are there any Christian armies with 100,000 men under arms fighting to reestablish the Holy Roman Empire? Because there’s an army like that trying to reestablish the caliphate. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/430 "2015-12-24T15:32:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And the number of Christian theocracies in the world vs. the number of Muslim theocracies? Are there any Christian armies with 100,000 men under arms fighting to reestablish the Holy Roman Empire? Because there’s an army like that trying to reestablish the caliphate. Again, I was responding to the point that sought to describe Islam as a system that subverted public law with religious law. We are threatened with that here in America, through civil disobedience rather than military force. But the point remains; some Christians in and out of government, believe that god’s law supersedes public law. If you want to move the goalposts to discuss the military goals of ISIS, go right ahead, but I feel no burden to go there with you. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/431 "2015-12-24T18:03:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > We have candidates for President right now who believe that god’s law supersedes public law, and that the Constitution should be changed to respect god’s law. And…what is your point? That the religiously devout are constantly in favor of imposing their make-believe shit on the masses? Agreed. Not only that, but many of the devout masses support them! That’s WHY Islam (and Old Testament tenets) and any number of equally idiotic belief structures are the enemy of western democracy. There are people who think these texts should be law. “Neener neener there are Christians/Jews/whatever who also want their religion to be Boss of You” is not a reason that Islam is not the enemy. All such make believe structures are the enemy. I keep saying that. Are you listening? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/432 "2015-12-24T18:13:22Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > And…what is your point? Conservative Christians are the enemy. The fact that Islamic terrorists are also the enemy does not diminish that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/433 "2015-12-24T19:51:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And the number of Christian theocracies in the world vs. the number of Muslim theocracies? Are there any Christian armies with 100,000 men under arms fighting to reestablish the Holy Roman Empire? Not since 1945. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/434 "2015-12-24T23:18:48Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Conservative Christians are the enemy. The fact that Islamic terrorists are also the enemy does not diminish that. No. Generally, people are people, trapped within whatever paradigm they were born into, or got sucked into. Muslims are not the enemy of western democracy. Christians are not the enemy of western democracy. Their religious tenets are the enemy. Where such a tenet in Islam is at odds with freedom of expression, that tenet–and the Islam that promotes it–is the enemy. Where such a tenet in the Old Testament is misogynous toward women, that tenet–and the religion which promotes it–is the enemy. We have got to stop demonizing people and start understanding that it is the religions themselves which are the enemy, and which provide the fodder for bad behavior. If we could get rid of Islam as a religion, there wouldn’t be any Islamic terrorists. There might be terrorists fighting for some other social or political cause, but without Islam, the motivation for the vast majority would be seriously gutted, since what most of them have been sucked into believing is that they are defending Islam against an aggressive effort by the west to stamp it out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=21)