# Look, Islam is not the enemy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644 "2015-11-26T16:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/41 "2015-11-27T01:33:24Z")
Not a serious Question:) Your point about extremists failing the “civilisation test” is worth thinking about. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/42 "2015-11-27T01:45:59Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > All those listed are part of Islamic Civilization, obviously. Oh, so Islamic Civilization is on both sides of the clash, plus on the side that isn’t part of the clash. That sure clears it up. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/43 "2015-11-27T01:48:29Z")
Whoooaaa: [url=[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russia-targets-turkish-economy-in-retaliation-for-downing-of-warplane/2015/11/26/b0fb7fac-9433-11e5-a2d6-f57908580b1f\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russia-targets-turkish-economy-in-retaliation-for-downing-of-warplane/2015/11/26/b0fb7fac-9433-11e5-a2d6-f57908580b1f_story.html)] Washington Post: Moscow is ready to coordinate with the West over strikes on Syria, Putin says [/quote] > [@](#): > > After talks with French President François Hollande at the Kremlin, Putin said, “We are ready to cooperate with the coalition which is **led by the United States**.” This is an amazing, unexpected development.: Russia agreeing to be led in a common cause by the US. Now let’s just see if that means the US can get Putin to ditch that slug Assad. I fear Putin is playing some kind of game, and that Assad is at the root of it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/44 "2015-11-27T02:03:29Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > The West’s second most dangerous enemy, and a strong second it is, is its own deluded irresolution. That “irresolution” is another name for “hard lessons learned.” It exists because invading Iraq turned out to be a Very Bad Idea, as you know. It got us into an incredibly expensive and intractable quagmire, turned Iraq into a hell of poverty, instability, ethnic cleansing and refugees – and opened the way for the rise of ISIS. > [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > But ISIS is not going to be put out of business except by boots on the ground, and the West does not in its present irresolute state of mind state have the guts to do what it takes, which is to win a conventional war of conquest (yes, another one, this time against ISIS), and then stay for next goddam 50 years if we must. Why would that work any better a second time? ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/45 "2015-11-27T02:04:35Z")
The “Clash of Civilisations” is an obviously loaded idea. We have 60 seconds to the minute and 360 degrees in a circle from the Sumerians. Islamic thinkers have provided concepts that were instrumental in the development of “Western” civilisation. The fact that “western” economic and military power has reduced the culture to the level of ignorance we see is a interesting question. The recent events in Paris cannot be construed to represent anything that claims to be a civilisation. Those people are savages. They have a very limited connection to any civilisation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/46 "2015-11-27T02:04:59Z")
> [@fire\_hazard](#): > > The recent events in Paris cannot be construed to represent anything that claims to be a civilisation. The Romans were civilized. The Aztecs were civilized. Civilization is not a moral condition of a culture, it is a technological and organizational condition. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/47 "2015-11-27T02:08:44Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Whoooaaa: > > [url=[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russia-targets-turkish-economy-in-retaliation-for-downing-of-warplane/2015/11/26/b0fb7fac-9433-11e5-a2d6-f57908580b1f\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russia-targets-turkish-economy-in-retaliation-for-downing-of-warplane/2015/11/26/b0fb7fac-9433-11e5-a2d6-f57908580b1f_story.html)] Washington Post: Moscow is ready to coordinate with the West over strikes on Syria, Putin says > [@](#): > > This is an amazing, unexpected development.: Russia agreeing to be led in a common cause by the US. > > Now let’s just see if that means the US can get Putin to ditch that slug Assad. I fear Putin is playing some kind of game, and that Assad is at the root of it. They’ve decided which pipeline they prefer. Whatever government, it will have to be pro Iran. ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/48 "2015-11-27T02:10:21Z")
We used to burn witches. There is no future in the Past… ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/49 "2015-11-27T02:19:50Z")
I’ll get to the rest later, but the following makes for a brief enough inviting target to dispose of separately. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > No. No, they weren’t. They were wars between a coalition of Greek city states and the Persian Empire, over some pretty specific stuff. Details matter. They were not wars between “The West” (singular) and some vaguely imagined demonic “East”. The only “specific stuff” and detail that mattered at the start was the attempt by the Persian Empire to conquer the Greek states. The first target was the Ionian Greek states of the east coast of the Aegean. These had been for several generations semi-autonomous under the lax rule of the semi-Hellenic state of Lydia, which ruled what are now western and central Turkey. Lydia was conquered by the Persians under Cyrus ca. 550BCE, and their Ionian subjects fell into the Persian lap. The Persians then imposed a somewhat more closely supervised regimen on the Ionians, and the foremost Ionian city, Miletus, eventually revolted. After a fierce struggle the Persians took Miletus by siege (I think 494BCE) and leveled it. Numerous mainland Greek states to the west, first and foremost Athens, had aided Miletus. The Persians decided as their next step to punish Athens by conquering it. The famous battle of Marathon resulted, and that was the end of the 1st Greco-Persian War. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/50 "2015-11-27T02:26:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Romans were civilized. The Aztecs were civilized. Civilization is not a moral condition of a culture, it is a technological and organizational condition. Ah, “civilization”, and its definitions. Here we go again. We had a whole thread about this a while ago (and somehow, at the end of it, things were even less clear than before). “Civilization”, like “fuck”, is a word that is heavily dependent on context for its meaning. Yes, that’s all. However, unlike “fuck”, which is sturdy and versatile enough to replace most of our daily vocabulary and still keep on making sense, “civilization” is so wobbly and gelatinous that it rarely makes it through a single conversation without becoming a useless mess. “Fuck” is my favorite word. “Civilization” is quickly becoming more the opposite. I say fuck it. From orbit. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/51 "2015-11-27T02:31:55Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > The first target was the Ionian Greek states of the east coast of the Aegean. These had been for several generations semi-autonomous under the lax rule of the semi-Hellenic state of Lydia, which ruled what are now western and central Turkey. Lydia was conquered by the Persians under Cyrus ca. 550BCE, and their Ionian subjects fell into the Persian lap. The Persians then imposed a somewhat more closely supervised regimen on the Ionians, and the foremost Ionian city, Miletus, eventually revolted. After a fierce struggle the Persians took Miletus by siege (I think 494BCE) and leveled it. Numerous mainland Greek states to the west, first and foremost Athens, had aided Miletus. The Persians decided as their next step to punish Athens by conquering it. The famous battle of Marathon resulted, and that was the end of the 1st Greco-Persian War. Um… yes. That you, very informative. Your point? Or are we just trading random facts about history now, to see who [del]has the biggest penis[/del] is the best at reading Wikipedia? 'Cause, fuck, I can do that all day, and often do. Not sure what this has to do with your claim that there’s a “Clash of Civilizations” going on, though. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/52 "2015-11-27T02:32:01Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > I’ll get to the rest later, but the following makes for a brief enough inviting target to dispose of separately. > > The only “specific stuff” and detail that mattered at the start was the attempt by the Persian Empire to conquer the Greek states. > > The first target was the Ionian Greek states of the east coast of the Aegean. These had been for several generations semi-autonomous under the lax rule of the semi-Hellenic state of Lydia, which ruled what are now western and central Turkey. Lydia was conquered by the Persians under Cyrus ca. 550BCE, and their Ionian subjects fell into the Persian lap. The Persians then imposed a somewhat more closely supervised regimen on the Ionians, and the foremost Ionian city, Miletus, eventually revolted. After a fierce struggle the Persians took Miletus by siege (I think 494BCE) and leveled it. Numerous mainland Greek states to the west, first and foremost Athens, had aided Miletus. The Persians decided as their next step to punish Athens by conquering it. The famous battle of Marathon resulted, and that was the end of the 1st Greco-Persian War. All of that sounds more like ordinary great-power politics than any “Clash of Civilizations.” The Persians tried to conquer the Greeks because that’s what empires do, and Alexander conquered Persia because he wanted one of his own – and, when he got there, found himself admiring Persian culture so much that he practically went native, and took two Persian wives. That’s no apostle of Hellenism, that’s a king being a king. ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/53 "2015-11-27T02:37:04Z")
The “it’s all just semantics” argument is fine in theory. Doesn’t seem too helpful in real life… ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/54 "2015-11-27T02:39:09Z")
> [@fire\_hazard](#): > > The “it’s all just semantics” argument is fine in theory. > > Doesn’t seem too helpful in real life… Sweeping historical metanarrative, on the other hand, is really helpful. I find it especially useful for doing laundry and stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/55 "2015-11-27T02:49:33Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Speaking of Alexander: Most Greeks at the time (yes, I know, it’s my ballpark estimate) hated his guts, just as they hated his dad before him. The first thing that happened after he died was a Greek rebellion against Macedon. And ask any party in those conflicts (or, well, their descendants) how they felt when the Romans showed up later on. If you try selling them your “East vs West” metanarrative, they’ll probably tell you to get stuffed. “Western Civilization” doesn’t have much of a track record for being a unified thing. (And I’m not even out the classical age yet! Oh, boy, there’s a lot coming up, get ready.) I do not know where you are going with this Alexandrian popularity contest, but it is a red herring because neither side in a war of civilizations is required to be united and at peace with itself. And Oh boy I am ready for all you got. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Neither does the East, for that matter. Oh, and as for “Islamic civilization”, it obviously won’t be invented for several hundred years, so if you ask the dudes in classical antiquity about that, they’ll just look at you funny. What are you talking about? > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Clashing of civilizations, especially between the “Good West” and the “Evil East”, isn’t really how history works. There are conflicts. West and East have clashed more or less constantly since the Hellenic era in the West. That is how history has taken place. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Some of them involve some people from over here, depending on your definition of “here”. Others involve some people from over there, depending on your definition of “there”. Some of the time some of the people over there are on a different side from some of the people over here (although mostly not). Gobbledygook. Rewrite it. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Hey, speaking of the Persians: Cut them some slack, they ended the Babylonian captivity, when Cyrus took Babylon. They get great press in the Bible. I mean, I assume you count the Bible as part of “Western Civilization”. Most people seem to, although it’s totally a Middle Eastern export, so who knows how that works. But I digress. I cut Persians slack for emancipating slaves more than for anything else. That made even the Greek Democracies look bad in comparison. But the Persians wanted to conquer the world, it seems, and when their Eastern Civilization into the more militarily efficient and perhaps more motivated Western Greek Civiliazation it was their undoing. I never have understood why the Persians didn’t do more to copy the Greek military organization, but they failed to. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/56 "2015-11-27T02:53:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That “irresolution” is another name for “hard lessons learned.” It exists because invading Iraq turned out to be a Very Bad Idea, as you know. It got us into an incredibly expensive and intractable quagmire, turned Iraq into a hell of poverty, instability, ethnic cleansing and refugees – and opened the way for the rise of ISIS. > > Why would that work any better a second time? For the 2nd time: the reason it did not work was because we left too soon. People whining about we can’t stay forever and what not. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/57 "2015-11-27T02:56:05Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > West and East have clashed more or less constantly since the Hellenic era in the West. That is how history has taken place. No. No, they haven’t. \*Everybody \*has been clashing more or less constantly with anyone they thought themselves big enough to beat up. That is how history has taken place. Well, until we got weapons nasty enough for mutually ensured destruction, which is the number one reason why we’ve been chilling out a bit, relatively speaking, since WWII. Speaking of WWII, I can’t wait for you to shoehorn that one (or the first one) into your East vs West concept of history. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/58 "2015-11-27T02:58:50Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Um… yes. That you, very informative. > > Your point? Or are we just trading random facts about history now, to see who [del]has the biggest penis[/del] is the best at reading Wikipedia? 'Cause, fuck, I can do that all day, and often do. Not sure what this has to do with your claim that there’s a “Clash of Civilizations” going on, though. Reported. And although I often find Wiki useful I have not needed to use it in this thread. If I do use it I will cite it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/59 "2015-11-27T03:05:09Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > I cut Persians slack for emancipating slaves more than for anything else. That made even the Greek Democracies look bad in comparison. But the Persians wanted to conquer the world, it seems, and when their Eastern Civilization into the more militarily efficient and perhaps more motivated Western Greek Civiliazation it was their undoing. I never have understood why the Persians didn’t do more to copy the Greek military organization, but they failed to. How did you figure the Persians wanted to conquer the world? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/60 "2015-11-27T03:11:12Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Gobbledygook. Rewrite it. OK, fine, let’s see… No, actually, it’s not gobbledygook at all, it’s fine. I stand by it. In fact, I’ll keep it handy for the next time I’m describing the history of war and conflict to a kindergarten class. Or certain rooms full of PhD’s. The two can look oddly similar sometimes. > [@](#): > > Reported. Seriously? Reported? You just broke my “reported” cherry? Wow, I’m not sure how to feel now. I didn’t even know you cared. Huh. This’ll be interesting. What for, though? Was it because I keep saying “penis” and “fuck”? If so, maybe that is warnable in this forum, so fair cop. I’ll be willing to change my ways. I was a sailor in a former life, I’m sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=4)