# Look, Islam is not the enemy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644 "2015-11-26T16:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/81 "2015-11-27T04:24:12Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Lydia attacked Persia, not the other way around. I know Lydia was the original aggressor. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That was what brought the Persians into Ionia. And it was Athenian assistance to the rebel Ionian client states of Persia that caused them to attack Athens. This is exactly what I said. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If you look at what the Persians were doing in the Persian Wars, those were punitive expeditions. > > Persia didn’t set out to conquer. What?- the Persians had conquered everything from the Indus to the Nile to the east Aegean coast, and then it suddenly became just “punitive”? That is an unreasonable position to take. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/82 "2015-11-27T04:25:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Channeling [that](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gatsby) [man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Grant) [Goddard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothrop_Stoddard), are we? What the hell are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/83 "2015-11-27T04:27:57Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Where do you get “god-king” from? Are you sure you’re not thinking of Egypt? Darius and Xerxes were both strict Zoroastrians. Neither of them considered themselves gods. That sort of thing would have been pretty much blasphemy. This time I did break down and consult Wiki and others. I recalled that Alexander wanted to be a God-King, and assumed he got the idea from the Persians. I have found nothing to support that and I believe you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/84 "2015-11-27T04:28:13Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > The problem is the middle east. > > The solution is simple. > > Nuke every square inch of the middle east. All radical muslims and anyone they could possibly have radicalised are dead. That’s kinda severe, but, we could at least nuke Jerusalem. (Give everybody there a hundred bucks or two to leave, for the inconvenience, you have to be fair.) With bombs so dirty that nobody can go near the site without a lead suit for the next 1000 years at least. Problem solved! 🙂 (I’m tempted to say, nuke Mecca too – but, nobody is **fighting** over Mecca. Yet. If that ever happens, let the Ka’aba Stone be reduced to constituent atoms blowing over the desert.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/85 "2015-11-27T04:32:34Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > What the hell are you talking about? Click the links and you’ll know. But, you don’t have to click the links, you already know very well. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/86 "2015-11-27T04:42:12Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > The problem is the middle east. > > The solution is simple. > > Nuke every square inch of the middle east. All radical muslims and anyone they could possibly have radicalised are dead. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That’s kinda severe, but, we could at least nuke Jerusalem. Knock it off. This is bad sarcasm and is not appropriate to the discussion. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/87 "2015-11-27T04:50:27Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > You have a point. > > No, not in the argument. That would be silly. I’m just giving you a point for knowing about the Diadochi. Heck, at least I always claim a point when I get use that word in a sentence. I stick it into conversations whenever I can. It’s almost as cool as “deuteragonist” or “antepenultimate”. > > Using Rome as an example of constant war between East and West on the other hand, is… how can I put this as non-offensively as possible… OK, since you actually seem to know your history, I suppose “misinformed” or “ignorant” are out. I think I’ll go with “stupid”. So zero points for that. Since you have Wiki open anyway for your search on “diadochi” why don’t you skip on over to this: [Wiki: Roman–Parthian Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman%E2%80%93Parthian_Wars) Parthia was, you know, sort of east. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > East, west, makes no difference: The Romans beat up on everyone who would stand still long enough. The only reason why there was constant warfare between Rome (and then Byzantium) and whatever Empire happened to rule the Persian territories, was that the Romans were never able to actually successfully conquer the area (well, at least not more than once, in 1960, for 20 minutes). > > But you know that. So I don’t know what you’re getting at. The above does not appear to be soberly written. Please try again. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Of course, you also know perfectly well that when the Muslim conquests got started, the Sassanids were the first on the dinner menu. An \*Eastern \*empire. And of course the Zoroastrian-Iranian constituted a different civilization from the Islamic-Arab. You probably didn’t know that until I told you. Even if they were identical different members of the same civilizations are permitted to fight each other. You probably didn’t know that either until I told you. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/88 "2015-11-27T04:56:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Click the links and you’ll know. But, you don’t have to click the links, you already know very well. I clicked one of your links and it was off-topic and that was enough. What is it I know very well? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/89 "2015-11-27T04:58:23Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > The above does not appear to be soberly written. Please try again. Try reading it again. Or at least point out the parts that you don’t understand. And I really, \*really \*hope it’s the bit about 1960 and 20 minutes. No, I mean it. I dare you. You have me worked up now, and I’m feeling masochistic. > [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > And of course the Zoroastrian-Iranian constituted a different civilization from the Islamic-Arab. You probably didn’t know that until I told you. Even if they were identical different members of the same civilizations are permitted to fight each other. You probably didn’t know that either until I told you. No, I get it: You’re redefining “clash of civilizations” as “any war or conflict between two or more entities, ever, irrespective of the particular historical circumstances or the number of people from each civilization involved in the conflict”. That way, we can call any war or conflict a “clash of civilizations”. Therefore, Muslims are nasty. No problem at all. It makes perfect sense, I’m on board. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/90 "2015-11-27T05:02:09Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > I clicked one of your links and it was off-topic and that was enough. What is it I know very well? That saying “Alas for the West its own internal strife was its undoing, and its hegemony is gone” is the exactly the same as mourning the declining hegemony of the white race, exactly as Grant and Stoddard and “this man Goddard” mourned it – nothing more and nothing less. As you know very well. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/91 "2015-11-27T05:18:18Z")
BTW, guys, correct me I’m wrong, but aren’t members of the “Muslims are scary” subset (or, wait, is it that whole set?) of the “Clash of Civilizations” fan club supposed to at least restrict themselves to recent history, as in post Cold War, or at the worst not venture before ca. 700 AD? I don’t know why we’re even dragging ancient history into this. I mean, if we go there, we might as well put on our party hats and bring up the Trojan War. This shit has been going on since the Bronze Age, I’m telling you! And it all started with a girl! Yeah. 'Cause, you know, it doesn’t actually work, and it’s not a particularly fun game, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/92 "2015-11-27T05:33:45Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Try reading it again. Or at least point out the parts that you don’t understand. And I really, \*really \*hope it’s the bit about 1960 and 20 minutes. > > No, I mean it. I dare you. You have me worked up now, and I’m feeling masochistic. Masochistic? You aren’t having one of those fits where you repeatedly bite yourself or something like that, are you? If that is what is wrong maybe I should try to divert your attention: Do north and south make any difference? > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > No, I get it: You’re redefining “clash of civilizations” as “any war or conflict between two or more entities, ever, irrespective of the particular historical circumstances or the number of people from each civilization involved in the conflict”. That way, we can call any war or conflict a “clash of civilizations”. Therefore, Muslims are nasty. No problem at all. It makes perfect sense, I’m on board. The entire distinct Persian civilization was at stake, it lost, and it was transformed by a clash with a different civilization. This process was repeated over and over elsewhere for the next 50-75 years. That is plain history and it is not the same as for example the numerous civil wars that the Arabs took part in against each other, which were not intercivilizational. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/93 "2015-11-27T05:51:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That saying “Alas for the West its own internal strife was its undoing, and its hegemony is gone” is the exactly the same as mourning the declining hegemony of the white race, exactly as Grant and Stoddard and “this man Goddard” mourned it – nothing more and nothing less. As you know very well. I found Stoddard on Wiki, so now I know who he is. I do not know Grant, Goddard or what you are talking about at all. Go ahead and tell me what you are talking about, and don’t worry about me getting all worked up like that Martian guy, with his dare-yous. I take it, I dish it out, I keep at it as long as it interests me. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/94 "2015-11-27T06:03:05Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Masochistic? You aren’t having one of those fits where you repeatedly bite yourself or something like that, are you? Well, I was getting close for a moment there. > [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > The entire distinct Persian civilization was at stake, it lost, and it was transformed by a clash with a different civilization. The Sassanids happened to be next to a bunch of recently united Arabs with a fancy new religion, who figured it was a good idea to go on the war path, because, hey, opportunity. Said Sassanids got wiped out, mostly because their armies were pre-toasted after the lukewarm never-ending bitch-slapping contest with the Byzantines had recently gone very hot. As it turned out, the plan worked out pretty well for said Arabs. Sound a lot less ominous that way, doesn’t it? No one was saying “we’re bringing down this civilization and replacing it with another civiliziation, because… neo-Hegelianism”. Not any more than anyone was saying that before the battle of Thermopylae. People are fighting for their immediate objectives, and the continued existence own their own backsides. Heck, come to think of it, I actually doubt that anyone before a battle has ever said that. Except maybe, in the immortal words of John Green, the Mongols. And some recently converted neo-Hegelians. Who, BTW, I’m not sure if I want to trust with guns. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/95 "2015-11-27T06:11:21Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > If that is what is wrong maybe I should try to divert your attention: Do north and south make any difference? OK, attention diverted. Um, I dunno, Do they? Is this question like one of those imponderable lines that you’re supposed to keep meditating over, until someone points and laughs? ---
**Author:** ![bomberswarm2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c37758/32.png) [@bomberswarm2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bomberswarm2)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/96 "2015-11-27T08:36:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Knock it off. > > This is bad sarcasm and is not appropriate to the discussion. > > [/Moderating] It’s not sarcasm. We spend deades fighting in there, loosing western lives. Just finish it. Remember this post, in 50 years when we’re nuking them anyway, you can remember that I was right. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/97 "2015-11-27T14:40:48Z")
Persia was, like most empires, militaristic and bent on conquest. But they weren’t notably more vicious than any other empire and SOME of the nations they conquered (like the Jews) regarded them as relatively benevolent rulers. Some empires wanted to exterminate the conquered, others to enslave to conquered, others to reshape the conquered in their own image. Persians just wanted land and tribute. None of which has much to do with modern Islam. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/98 "2015-11-27T14:52:56Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > I found Stoddard on Wiki, so now I know who he is. I do not know Grant, Goddard or what you are talking about at all. Go ahead and tell me what you are talking about, and don’t worry about me getting all worked up like that Martian guy, with his dare-yous. I take it, I dish it out, I keep at it as long as it interests me. “Have you read T_he Rise of the Colored Empires_ by this man Goddard? … Well, it’s a fine book, and everybody ought to read it. The idea is if we don’t look out the white race will be – will be utterly submerged. It’s all scientific stuff; it’s been proved.” – Tom Buchanan in _The Great Gatsby_ by F. Scott Fitzgerald (“Goddard” is clearly a portmanteau of “Grant” and “Stoddard”) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/99 "2015-11-27T15:05:27Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Masochistic? You aren’t having one of those fits where you repeatedly bite yourself or something like that, are you? If that is what is wrong maybe I should try to divert your attention: Do north and south make any difference? No, because one of its legs is both the same. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644/100 "2015-11-27T19:26:03Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > For the 2nd time: the reason it did not work was because we left too soon. People whining about we can’t stay forever and what not. “People” includes the Iraqi government. For America to stay it would have to ignore the status of force agreement, basically declaring that Iraqi sovereignty and democracy were meaningless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-islam-is-not-the-enemy/738644.md?page=6)