# Look, we all know that if Michael Brown had been white . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603 "2014-11-25T16:23:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/21 "2014-11-25T16:59:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If Martin had been white, would there have been “public pressure” to arrest Zimmerman? Absolutely. Rather more of it, actually. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/22 "2014-11-25T17:00:27Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > The extreme disappointment on all the reporters faces when there was no more riots . . . . . . Eh? Weren’t there? Seem to recall some such thing from the news this morning. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/23 "2014-11-25T17:01:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think anyone of any race who assaulted a cop would run serious risk of death. Of course they would; but, the risk would not be the same from one race to another. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/24 "2014-11-25T17:09:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course they would; but, the risk would not be the same from one race to another. But that’s not how you started the thread: you said that what happened to a black person _would not have happened_ if the person had been white. Look, we all know that if you start a statement with “Look, we all know that…” you’re just begging people to disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/25 "2014-11-25T17:11:37Z")
I worked with a (white) guy about 10 years ago that wound up getting shot by the cops in very rural Montana under essentially similar circumstances-- he was unarmed, but was a huge dude (and very likely under the influence of various things) and for reasons we’ll never know he tried to grab the cop’s gun, who in turn shot him multiple times before he actually went down. There was a coroner’s inquest (which is standard with police shootings in the state) but it was pretty much a rubber stamp, and it certainly didn’t attract any media attention beyond a couple of articles in the small paper in the nearest little town. I think both in the case of my old co-worker and from what I’ve read of the case in the news now, the officers showed poor judgement in allowing themselves to get into the situation, but by the time the shots were actually fired things had been allowed to get to a point that there was little other choice. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/26 "2014-11-25T17:12:43Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > But that’s not how you started the thread: you said that what happened to a black person _would not have happened_ if the person had been white. No, I said “probably,” in the first clause of the sentence, and I chose that word for a reason, just as I chose the word “certainly” in the second clause. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/27 "2014-11-25T17:29:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If Martin had been white, would there have been “public pressure” to arrest Zimmerman? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Absolutely. Rather more of it, actually. In fact, the case probably would have led to state legislation expressly forbidding neighborhood watch volunteers to carry guns while on duty – or, at least, such legislation would have been introduced; but then the NRA would have weighed in . . . ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/28 "2014-11-25T17:32:34Z")
He just goes further and further into the rabbit hole… ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/29 "2014-11-25T17:36:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Do you really think the same evidence would have been presented to the grand jury if Brown had been white? It is obvious the prosecutors in this case had no serious interest in getting Wilson indicted. Have you looked at the transcripts provided in the link posted by **Chief Pedant**? Based on the documentation of autopsy results and detailed witness interviews and grand jury transcripts, I find it hard to believe this was taken lightly by the investigative authorities. Please tell me why you think they went “easy” on Wilson? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/30 "2014-11-25T17:38:43Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Or like the OJ Simpson case? > > If OJ had been black, he’d have gone to the big house for sure. > The only thing that saved him was being so darn white, basically. (Skin tone aside.) What saved him was having lots of money in a basically plutocratic society. when the money ran out he did go to prison. > [@Smapti](#): > > If Martin had been white, would there have been “public pressure” to arrest Zimmerman? Of course. But he was black, therefore the public sentiment was that there should be a public show to rub it in the collective face of black men that their lives have no value. The same thing this grand jury’s refusal to even indict a cop for killing a black guy was about, really; they wanted to make _sure_ that message was sent. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/31 "2014-11-25T18:03:47Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > I worked with a (white) guy about 10 years ago that wound up getting shot by the cops in very rural Montana under essentially similar circumstances-- he was unarmed, but was a huge dude (and very likely under the influence of various things) and for reasons we’ll never know he tried to grab the cop’s gun, who in turn shot him multiple times before he actually went down. There was a coroner’s inquest (which is standard with police shootings in the state) but it was pretty much a rubber stamp, and it certainly didn’t attract any media attention beyond a couple of articles in the small paper in the nearest little town. > > I think both in the case of my old co-worker and from what I’ve read of the case in the news now, the officers showed poor judgement in allowing themselves to get into the situation, but by the time the shots were actually fired things had been allowed to get to a point that there was little other choice. I agree with this. Brown was a big guy who used his size to bully and intimidate. I don’t care what color you are, if you attack me and you’re built like a tackle for the Baltimore Ravens, the gun is coming out. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What saved him was having lots of money in a basically plutocratic society. when the money ran out he did go to prison. Are you serious (re: OJ)? The crime he is doing time for isn’t the same one he was acquitted of in 1995. Apples and oranges. He was acquitted of double murder, but is now serving his time for robbery and kidnapping in a completely unrelated crime to the first trial. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/32 "2014-11-25T18:14:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It is obvious the prosecutors in this case had no serious interest in getting Wilson indicted. Based on [Robert McCulloch’s history](http://www.newsweek.com/ferguson-prosecutor-robert-p-mccullochs-long-history-siding-police-267357), that is, and his assignment to this case cannot have had nothing to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/33 "2014-11-25T18:15:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Absolutely. Rather more of it, actually. Remind me of the last time a white man shot a white man in self-defense and there was a national outcry and marches demanding his arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/34 "2014-11-25T18:16:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course. But he was black, therefore the public sentiment was that there should be a public show to rub it in the collective face of black men that their lives have no value. The same thing this grand jury’s refusal to even indict a cop for killing a black guy was about, really; they wanted to make _sure_ that message was sent. I didn’t realize the cry to to indict Wilson was coming from the white community. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/35 "2014-11-25T18:30:21Z")
Brain Glutton, the narrative you promoting exists. It has some elements of validity. But the stronger narrative perceived by most in the white community is that the problem of strong-arm policing toward blacks is not a consequence of color, per se. It’s a consequence of hoodlums like Michael Brown. Bullies, petty thieves and general belligerants are too common within the black community. Neither Jesse Jackson nor Al Sharpton would make the mistake of wandering around a poor black community at night, alone. Those of us (in my case, inner city trauma ward experience) who cannot possibly understand what it’s like to be black do not nevertheless see an issue more fundamental to failure in the black community than the large scale with which lawlessness seems to exist there. I cannot imagine what it is like for an ordinary black citizen to live in those communities, and Michael Brown is as much the face of what is wrong as are strong armed police. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/36 "2014-11-25T18:34:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, we all know that if Michael Brown had been white . . . > > . . . and were the exact same size, and had done the exact same things, he probably would be alive today; and if he were not alive, Darren Wilson certainly would be facing an indictment today. Does anyone here seriously doubt either part of that? I seriously doubt both of your poisoned well statements. That makes your “we all know” statement totally lacking in credibility. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/37 "2014-11-25T18:38:59Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Brain Glutton, the narrative you promoting exists. It has some elements of validity. > > But the stronger narrative perceived by most in the white community is that the problem of strong-arm policing toward blacks is not a consequence of color, per se. It’s a consequence of hoodlums like Michael Brown. Bullies, petty thieves and general belligerants are too common within the black community. They’re not unknown in the white community, either. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I cannot imagine what it is like for an ordinary black citizen to live in those communities, and Michael Brown is as much the face of what is wrong as are strong armed police. Was not Brown himself an “ordinary black citizen”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/38 "2014-11-25T18:41:38Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Bullies, petty thieves and general belligerants are too common within the black community. Unless there’s some “good” number of bullies, petty thieves, and general belligerents, then this statement is applicable to _every human society ever on earth_. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/39 "2014-11-25T18:54:38Z")
Has the OP heard of the [Brandon Ellingson](http://www.justiceforbrandonellingson.org/brandon.aspx) case? I bet he hasn’t. This is a clear case of “death by cop” just down the road from Ferguson, yet there are no riots, no national media calls for justice, no DOJ investigations. Just a white kid killed, through incompetence and neglect, by a white cop and then an attempt to cover it all up. Sign the petition if you follow the link. The family could use the help. > [@](#): > > Brandon was stopped on the lake under suspicion of boating while intoxicated. By taped accounts of the arresting officer himself, Brandon was respectful and compliant while he was taken into custody, placed in handcuffs, donned with an ill-fitting and inappropriate life vest, and driven away at extremely high speeds. Minutes later, Brandon’s body lay at the bottom of 69 feet of water. While the patrol’s boat was equipped with three audio-visual cameras, the memory cards were not in place and the atrocious events of the day were not recorded. > > More than 3 months went by with no word from anyone from the Missouri Patrol. No contact with the family, no statement from any authority including the Governor’s office, nothing. Then finally, on September 4, 2014 jurors at a one-day “coroner’s inquest” heard from 6 hand-picked witnesses. It was an antiquated proceeding in which one-sided information, selected only by the prosecutor and coroner, was presented. Crucial witnesses and evidence were left out and no cross-examination was allowed. Jurors deliberated for less than 8 minutes before determining Brandon’s death to be accidental. Four days later, the prosecutor said she would accept the jury’s decision, and no charges would be filed against the officer. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/40 "2014-11-25T18:58:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Remind me of the last time a white man shot a white man in self-defense and there was a national outcry and marches demanding his arrest. :rolleyes: If we’re talking about the Zimmerman case, 1) remember who assaulted whom, 2) remove “self-defense” from your hypothetical, 3) think about it some more and 4) come back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603.md?page=3)