# Look, we all know that if Michael Brown had been white . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603 "2014-11-25T16:23:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/41 "2014-11-25T18:59:02Z")
I, too, doubt both parts of that. Seriously. The one thing in this case that is obvious, at least to me, is that people on both sides of the debate of whether Wilson was right or wrong reached their conclusions based on little, if any, actual evidence. Many of the protesters said, from the beginning, “If there is no indictment, Ferguson will burn”. It looks like they were right. They absolutely ruled out the possibility that Wilson may have have been justified. Based on nothing more than rumors. Wilson backers defended him in a knee-jerk fashion. I was a homicide detective (now collecting a pension) and one of the more important things I learned was not to reach conclusions without evidence to back them up. I allowed for the possibility that Wilson was wrong but, upon hearing his version of things (second-hand through the girlfriend’s friend or whoever it was) I thought, “That is an entirely plausible scenario”. And, if it were true, justifies the use of deadly force in the manner in which it was used. It appears that the presentation to the grand jury was thorough and the grand jurors found no probable cause. That is what grand juries do. They have nothing to do with assigning value to lives. Are some cops racist? Absolutely. Have some cops killed/beaten/abused/framed completely innocent people? Yep. Is there a chance Wilson acted properly? If you believe the protesters, talking heads, pundits and the BrainGluttons, the answer is an unequivocal “NO!” Because they were there and saw exactly what transpired. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/42 "2014-11-25T19:00:53Z")
One thing that Americans will not be so aware of is the disparity between death by cop in the USA and elsewhere. In the UK any shooting by the police of any individual makes the top headline in the evening news. In 2011/12 there were five instances of police even opening fire. Two people died. In the USA in 2011 the were 168 people killed by police gunfire. So many people were targeted and not shot that adequate records are not available on the internet. So there is a problem of Gun Culture, Police Culture and Inter-racial culture (Ferguson as a largely African American community was policed by a largely white police department). ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/43 "2014-11-25T19:01:13Z")
I’m reminded of The Lego Movie: **Lucy** :\* That’s literally the dumbest [OP] I ever heard. \* **Vitruvius** :\* Please, Wyldstyle, let me handle this. That [OP] is just the worst. \* ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/44 "2014-11-25T19:01:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: If we’re talking about the Zimmerman case, 1) remember who assaulted whom, 2) remove “self-defense” from your hypothetical, 3) think about it some more and 4) come back. Does that mean you have no example of a white-on-white shooting that resulted in massive public outcry and marches and demands for an indictment? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/45 "2014-11-25T19:01:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What saved him was having lots of money in a basically plutocratic society. when the money ran out he did go to prison. Ah…so perhaps it’s money, and not race after all… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/46 "2014-11-25T19:03:13Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > It appears that the presentation to the grand jury was thorough and the grand jurors found no probable cause. That is what grand juries do. What grand juries do, _notoriously,_ is rubber stamp the prosecutor’s desires. In this case he desired there be no trial. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/47 "2014-11-25T19:04:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Was not Brown himself an “ordinary black citizen”? Didn’t seem like it to me. He seems like an arrogant asshole who thinks he can walk into a convenience store, take what he wants, leave without paying and just shove aside the owner protesting the robbery. Your take on whether or not that’s an “ordinary black citizen”? Mine is that the vast majority are law-abiding, honest, hard-working and decent. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/48 "2014-11-25T19:05:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Remind me of the last time a white man shot a white man in self-defense and there was a national outcry and marches demanding his arrest. July 11, 1804 Burr-Hamilton ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/49 "2014-11-25T19:08:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Unless there’s some “good” number of bullies, petty thieves, and general belligerents, then this statement is applicable to _every human society ever on earth_. Having worked in poverty stricken black areas, poverty stricken white areas, and a handful of countries throughout Europe, Asia and South America, it’s my personal observation that most black communities have a higher percentage of the above. There are race-based crime statistics maintained by the FBI, but it may be too much of a tangent to bring those up here. You can look them up if you are interested in attaching numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/50 "2014-11-25T19:10:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What grand juries do, _notoriously,_ is rubber stamp the prosecutor’s desires. In this case he desired there be no trial. So your complaint is that Wilson _wasn’t_ unfairly railroaded by a system that rubber-stamps anyone accused of a crime? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/51 "2014-11-25T19:16:43Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Having worked in poverty stricken black areas, poverty stricken white areas, and a handful of countries throughout Europe, Asia and South America, it’s my personal observation that most black communities have a higher percentage of the above. > > There are race-based crime statistics maintained by the FBI, but it may be too much of a tangent to bring those up here. You can look them up if you are interested in attaching numbers. I’m well aware of the statistics. For some reason you said that these criminals are “too common” among black communities, as if other communities have just the right number of such criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/52 "2014-11-25T19:19:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What saved him was having lots of money in a basically plutocratic society. when the money ran out he did go to prison. Yes, because when the money ran out _he robbed a casino_. But I guess that doesn’t fit your narrative about how evil America is. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/53 "2014-11-25T19:26:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: If we’re talking about the Zimmerman case, 1) remember who assaulted whom, 2) remove “self-defense” from your hypothetical, 3) think about it some more and 4) come back. I wasn’t aware that the Zimmerman debacle was about “a white man shot a white man in self-defense”. Or are you confused about the facts? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/54 "2014-11-25T19:27:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > . . . and were the exact same size, and had done the exact same things, he probably would be alive today; and if he were not alive, Darren Wilson certainly would be facing an indictment today. Does anyone here seriously doubt either part of that? No. We don’t all know that. In fact, none of us know that. YOU imagine that to be the case. And, pray tell, how does a cop, white, racist or otherwise, direct one bullet to find an organ in the body that will cause death and another one to just lodge itself in some muscle or fat? Please, tell me about these magic bullets! ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/55 "2014-11-25T19:46:20Z")
Der Trihs - Unless I am missing something, it seems that the prosecutor put on witnesses who say all kinds of things not in the officer’s favor - Brown on his knees when shot, Brown standing still and not moving toward officer, Brown shot in the back and so on. If this was intended to be a whitewash rubber stamp proceeding why put on witnesses whose testimony conflicts with your goal of no indictment? Are you of the opinion that there is no chance Wilson acted properly? If so, what do you base your opinion on? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/56 "2014-11-25T19:50:45Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Are you of the opinion that there is no chance Wilson acted properly? That’s what a _trial_ is supposed to determine. _Not_ a prosecutor with a well known history of shielding racist police. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/57 "2014-11-25T19:53:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s what a _trial_ is supposed to determine. _Not_ a prosecutor with a well known history of shielding racist police. Then you’ll have no problem coming up with a cite for this claim. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/58 "2014-11-25T20:18:36Z")
If Michael Brown had been white, yes, he probably would have been shot. That is a likely consequence of attacking a cop and trying to steal his gun. The overwhelming response from those few people who heard about it would have been “yeah, jackass, that’s what happens when you assault a cop.” And that would have been the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/59 "2014-11-25T20:42:21Z")
Yes, trials are there to determine whether there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused committed a crime. But Grand Juries are there to determine if there is even probable cause to proceed to a trial. In this case they said “No”. What is your theory on why the prosecutor put on witnesses that contradict your premise that he wanted to whitewash the case. And you didn’t answer my question - do YOU think there is a chance Wilson acted properly? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603/60 "2014-11-25T20:44:04Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Given how controversial and incensing a failure to indict was known to be in the present situation, I have to believe the grand jury had what they considered to be a good reason for doing so, something beyond a mere “let’s give the cop the benefit of the doubt.” Hence, yeah, they wouldn’t have indicted just because Michael Brown had been white. I guess the contrary : that given the importance of the case, the jury thought long and hard about whether it should indict or not, instead of casually indict just because it was asked to and the charge wasn’t patently absurd, as they would have done otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/look-we-all-know-that-if-michael-brown-had-been-white/705603.md?page=4)