# Looking for a definition of 'livery soldier' **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 18, 2019, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-definition-of-livery-soldier/827964 "2019-01-18T03:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2019, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-definition-of-livery-soldier/827964/21 "2019-01-19T04:27:31Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Yo, medieval soldiers gotta represent! Thank you all. Very helpful. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2019, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-definition-of-livery-soldier/827964/22 "2019-01-19T05:06:29Z")
I was listening to Patrick Wyman’s “Tides of History” today, the second of a two-parter about the Wars of the Roses. In describing the types of retainers a noble might have, he mentioned in passing people wearing the livery of the man–he described livery as a “badge.” It was implied that this was a temporary and contingent relationship, or at least more tenuous than lord/tenant or greater lord/lesser lord. But he really passed over it in a sentence so it wasn’t as illuminating as I’d hoped it would be. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-definition-of-livery-soldier/827964/23 "2019-01-19T17:52:57Z")
Okay, I listened to it again and gleaned a little more info from the surrounding context. Soldiers who were granted livery seem to have been knights or gentry–below lords, above men-at-arms. They were paid for service, which was temporary. Extrapolating off this, “livery” would seem to have been a recent-ish invention of “bastard feudalism,” in which social obligations were being replaced by pay. But there was still distinction of class–a baron wouldn’t give livery to a fellow baron, much less to a superior earl, nor to a lowly commoner, but to the rank just below him–as I said, knights, I’m guessing maybe powerful un-titled landowners, and maybe younger sons of nobles who held titles only by courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-definition-of-livery-soldier/827964/24 "2019-01-21T05:02:21Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > Extrapolating off this, “livery” would seem to have been a recent-ish invention of “bastard feudalism,” No. Livery \*precedes \*bastard feudalism, it’s the form that changed to the more classist one later. Initially, it would be \*all \*servants, not just retainers, who received e.g. an allowance of cloth in the lord’s colours (of that year - livery didn’t imply “standard colours” at first) and this goes back to _at least_ the 12th C. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-definition-of-livery-soldier/827964/25 "2019-01-21T19:25:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No. Livery \*precedes \*bastard feudalism, it’s the form that changed to the more classist one later. Initially, it would be \*all \*servants, not just retainers, who received e.g. an allowance of cloth in the lord’s colours (of that year - livery didn’t imply “standard colours” at first) and this goes back to _at least_ the 12th C. Thanks for that. But would the specific sense of “livery _soldiers_” still be an invention of the later period? By the way, I don’t think anyone but the OP has used or found that phrase–it wasn’t used in the podcast I mentioned. Also, any misinterpretation of the time period was entirely mine, not the podcast’s. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-definition-of-livery-soldier/827964/26 "2019-01-21T19:37:14Z")
It is a fairly commonly used term when referring to the late middle ages. It refers to a professional soldier in a lords retinue, as other have pointed out that is more common in the later middle ages and the era of “barstard feudalism” (where pay replaced some feudal obligations). Here is an example from a BBC documentary on the Battle of Towton, where the term is used. It discusses skeleton from someone killed in the battle. That they were a professional livery soldier, was implied by, among other things, the fact they had a recovered previous serious injury, which would have required the help of surgeon: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qiA0ffUqYo) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-definition-of-livery-soldier/827964.md?page=1)