# Looking for a specific sub-genre of fantasy novel--"mechanics" of magic **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 25, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680 "2016-10-25T14:56:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/1 "2016-10-25T14:56:02Z")
This subgenre was huge in the mid '70s- mid '80s and seems to have sadly faded away. I’m looking for novels (although short stories would do too) where a hero from our world ends up in a fantasy universe and has to learn the rules there. Off the top of my head, here’s a bunch of examples that I’ve read [ul] [li]The Complete/Incomplete/Compleat Enchanter by DeCamp and Pratt[/li][li]Spellsinger Series by Alan Dean Foster[/li][li]The Warlock series (sf, not fantasy, but just barely) by Stasheff[/li][li]Her Majesty’s Wizard by Stasheff[/li][li]The Wiz series by Rick Cook (a programmer can structure magic as code. Very fun)[/li][li]The Practice Effect by Brin (again, sf, but just barely)[/li][/ul] The main distinguishing feature that sets this sub-trope apart from varients are that the focus is heavily on the mechanics of the magic. There are dozens more. Del Rey books loved this subtrope in the '70s/'80s. Does anyone have any more modern suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/2 "2016-10-25T15:21:00Z")
Larry Niven’s _The Time of the Warlock._ Poul Anderson’s _Three Hearts and Three Lions_ does not delve deeply into the mechanics of magic, but it has some interesting intersections between magic and science. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/3 "2016-10-25T15:33:24Z")
Larry Niven’s short story “Convergent Series” is about a guy who summons a demon, imprisons it in a pentagram and then has a short time to figure out what he’s going to do before it leaves the pentagram and takes his soul. The demon has to follow some basic rules and the protagonist finds an interesting mathematical solution to the problem. I haven’t read the Wiz series you mention but it sounds similar to Charles Stross’ “Laundry Files” books, which are about an obscure British intelligence agency fighting off Unspeakable Horrors. The gist of it is that magic has a mathematical/logical underpinning (discovered by Alan Turing) so techies with the right skills can do all kinds of fascinating things. It’s kind of Dilbert Meets The Cthulu Mythos, I really enjoy them. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/4 "2016-10-25T16:22:57Z")
I love the Laundry Files, but it’s nothing like the Wiz series 🙂 . The Wiz series is very, VERY lighthearted and involves the character coming up with spells like this (forgive any programming errors–I haven’t used BASIC in 30+ years) 10 FOR X=1 to 50 20 CALL SUB “FIREBALL” 30 NEXT X 40 END It’s more involved than that and he doesn’t use BASIC, but it’ll give you an idea. Then, in the second book, the locals start figuring out how to hack his system. ---
**Author:** ![Helena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@Helena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/5 "2016-10-25T17:09:21Z")
Brandon Sanderson? He doesn’t use a character coming into the magic world from ours, but the mechanics of the magic systems are pretty central. He sets up the rules and then does interesting things with them. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/6 "2016-10-25T17:42:23Z")
Lawrence Watt-Evans carefully delineates five or six schools of magic in the Ethshar series, and goes into some detail about how each works, particularly in the later books. Not quite hard-nuts and bolts, but not wand-wavy, either. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/7 "2016-10-25T17:46:39Z")
The name of the Wind and The wise man’s fear by Patrick Rothfuss do delve somewhat in magic “mechanics”, it’s not the main focus of the books though. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/8 "2016-10-25T17:54:28Z")
I see the Laundry Files already got mentioned, so moving right along… You didn’t mention this in your 70s-80s retrospective of the genre, but one series that I enjoyed in that time period was Piers Anthony’s The Apprentice Adept. _[Split Infinity](https://www.amazon.com/Split-Infinity-Apprentice-Adept-Book/dp/0345354915)_ is book 1, and I guess there are seven of them now, but I’ve only read the first 3. Anyway, it’s set on another planet, Proton, that’s a bit of a technological dystopia, with a giant class divide. Citizens rule Proton, and are practically all-powerful. Serfs serve Citizens. There’s a giant game that all of the Serfs play and victory in the yearly Tournament gives you Citizenship. The protagonist is a horse jockey, and is one of the best players of the Game. Since it’s early 80’s Piers Anthony, naturally Serfs go naked, and there’s more than a few creepy sex scenes. If you can get past that, the setting is really quite interesting. Magic shows up within the first 100 pages, and I won’t give away anymore than that. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/9 "2016-10-25T19:16:53Z")
The Babylon 5 techno-mages. In a pure space opera, it’s odd to discuss magic, but techno-mages did it. Of course, it wasn’t really magic, just [sufficiently advanced technology](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicFromTechnology) with the trappings of the arcane. Even the mages themselves were very forthright about that, but that didn’t make the displays of their powers any less effective.[spoiler]Their magic is actually embedded Shadow bio-mechanical technology. When the techno-mages broke away from the Shadows, they also broke away from their direct instinctive use of their tech, and shrouded it in rituals and spell formulations to distance themselves from being the tools of the Shadows. As well as to enhance their effect with misdirection. The books explore the magical trappings and the underlying core capabilities, as uncovered by the POV character (who has an exceptional innate connection to the raw mode of using the Shadow implants but great difficulty accessing the powers through the normal spell-based methodology).[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/10 "2016-10-25T19:41:49Z")
The Hero from Otherwhere by Jay Williams ([Book Reviews, Sites, Romance, Fantasy, Fiction | Kirkus Reviews](https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/jay-williams-8/the-hero-from-otherwhere/)) is a YA novel with that theme. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/11 "2016-10-25T20:10:39Z")
> [@Helena](#): > > Brandon Sanderson? He doesn’t use a character coming into the magic world from ours, but the mechanics of the magic systems are pretty central. He sets up the rules and then does interesting things with them. I’d point especially to _Elantris_, as that one features magic which has pretty much been lost and the plot deals with the main character trying to re-discover it. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/12 "2016-10-25T20:14:21Z")
Joel Rosenberg’s _The Sword and the Flame_ series, starting with _The Sleeping Dragon._ Also… _Avatar._ ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/13 "2016-10-25T20:24:13Z")
Aw, man. I read a bunch from this series in middle school, guy from our world comes here and meets a knight, and a wizard, and there are dragons, and he figures out that he can do the same thing with any number of magical “thought” ways (like in BASIC, and then in a rhyme, say) but he can’t do any given one twice. Man, that’s gonna bug me. … aha, it starts off with The Dragon and the George, by Gordon Dickson. I think. That seems right; can’t quite be sure. ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/14 "2016-10-25T20:31:43Z")
I just finished reading the second book in Jim Hines _Magic Ex Libris_ series. It’s set in the present (I guess the genre is “urban fantasy,” though it’s mostly set in a small town in Michigan) and the hero, Isaac Vainio, learns much about the rules of “libriomancy” as the series progresses. Libriomancy is the art of tapping into the power of the mass subconscious through books, enabling the practitioner to reach into any book that has had a wide enough audience and pull into the real world any object that will fit through the page. It has rules and limitations, though, that are explored and expanded. In the first book, Vainio has to negotiate with a subculture of vampires with various powers, the result of careless libriomancers who reached into books by Bram Stoker, Stephanie Meyer, and others, and got their arms bitten. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/15 "2016-10-25T21:43:04Z")
There are some great “how the fuck does this WORK!” scenes in the (wonderful and hilarious) fanfic "Harry Potter and the methods of rationality " Dave Duncan is very good at this process, IMO, doing a constant drop of reveal… “and _this_ aspect of the world implies _this_ … and so then logically _that_ happens” - though it’s usually more focused on how social structures have to adapt to whatever magic system he’s set up. The “next door” series comes to mind ("Past Imperative ", “Present Tense” etc) ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/16 "2016-10-25T22:02:38Z")
Gordon Dickson’s _The Dragon and the George_ and its sequels. Lighthearted and a bit silly at times, but definitely qualifies. ETA: now I note it’s already been mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/17 "2016-10-25T23:12:18Z")
The entire premise of Lyndon Hardy’s Magics series is the mechanics involved. “Master of the Five Magics” “Secret of the Sixth Magic” “Riddle of the Seven Realms” ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/18 "2016-10-25T23:22:17Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > This subgenre was huge in the mid '70s- mid '80s and seems to have sadly faded away. > > I’m looking for novels (although short stories would do too) where a hero from our world ends up in a fantasy universe and has to learn the rules there. Off the top of my head, here’s a bunch of examples that I’ve read > > [ul] > [li]The Complete/Incomplete/Compleat Enchanter by DeCamp and Pratt[/li][li]Spellsinger Series by Alan Dean Foster[/li][li]The Warlock series (sf, not fantasy, but just barely) by Stasheff[/li][li]Her Majesty’s Wizard by Stasheff[/li][li]The Wiz series by Rick Cook (a programmer can structure magic as code. Very fun)[/li][li]The Practice Effect by Brin (again, sf, but just barely)[/li][/ul] > > The main distinguishing feature that sets this sub-trope apart from varients are that the focus is heavily on the mechanics of the magic. > > There are dozens more. Del Rey books loved this subtrope in the '70s/'80s. Does anyone have any more modern suggestions? I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but Christopher Stashieff (listed above in your list) added some adventures to Harold Shea/The Compleat Enchanter series. They’re collected (with some of deCamp’s) in [B[The Enchanter Reborn\*\* (1992) and **The Exotic Enchanter** (1995) Larry Niven’s work has been mentioned. His Magic stories aren’t exactly what you describe (offworlder having to learn how magic works) , but he has “mechanics of magic” in his book **The Magic Goes Away** and he and others in the collection **The Magic May Return** ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/19 "2016-10-26T00:16:13Z")
I was also going to recommend Hardy’s _Master of the Five Magics_ (though I haven’t read the sequels, so I don’t know how well they hold up). It’s fantasy as written by a physics professor. Each of the magics has its own rules it works by, and the protagonist has to learn all of them (and how they interact with each other). I’ll also nominate Robert Asprin’s _Myth_ series. The protagonist isn’t from our world, but his world is fairly low-magic, and he becomes apprentice to a powerful wizard from another dimension who’s temporarily lost his powers but not his knowledge. Over the course of the books, the protagonist only learns about three different spells, but he uses them so creatively that he manages to leverage them into a reputation for being the most powerful wizard in the multiverse. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680/20 "2016-10-26T00:32:10Z")
I somehow manage to be the guy who lists this a lot, but it’s great because I think the books deserve to be better known: [The Doomfarers of Coramonde](https://www.amazon.com/Doomfarers-Coramonde-Brian-Daley/dp/0345339533/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477441743&sr=8-1&keywords=doomfarers+of+coramonde) by Brian Daley and it’s sequel, [The Starfollowers of Coramonde](https://www.amazon.com/Starfollowers-Coramonde-Brian-Daley/dp/144018447X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1477441743&sr=8-2&keywords=doomfarers+of+coramonde) fit the OP’s notions. _Doomfarers_ begins with an APV full of soldiers in war-torn Vietnam being transported to a fantasy world of wizard and dragons. Transported in their APV, of course! Both books are great fun. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-a-specific-sub-genre-of-fantasy-novel-mechanics-of-magic/769680.md?page=2)