# Looking for good information on Vaccines, innoculations, epidemics, etc. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2000, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586 "2000-06-06T19:51:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/41 "2000-06-11T07:01:50Z")
> [@](#): > > And I could probably find enough parents whose children have been devastated by this vaccine to have a lynching party. Ah, I knew the atmosphere in this thread seemed somehow familiar. Resuming lurk mode . . . ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/42 "2000-06-11T07:47:49Z")
There is a big difference between deciding not to go for the “P” part of the DPT shot (ie, only “dt”) and; not immunizing your child at all. The first is cautious, the second is foolish AND selfish. There is no cure for Polio. And Dzdmona–Welcome to the SDMB! ---
**Author:** ![Dzdmona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@Dzdmona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dzdmona)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/43 "2000-06-11T08:11:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > There is a big difference between deciding not to go for the “P” part of the DPT shot (ie, only “dt”) and; not immunizing your child at all. The first is cautious, the second is foolish AND selfish. > > There is no cure for Polio. > > And Dzdmona–Welcome to the SDMB! > \*\* Rereading my post confirmed that not once did I ever suggest that anyone waive all vaccinations. I wouldn’t do that. I did, however, suggest that parents do their reading and research to make up their own minds. The interesting thing is, Daniel, after working with parents who are either recovering from a vaccine reaction within their families or parents who are astonished that their concerns about vaccines have been pooh-poohed…they tend to build up this massive mistrust of their health care provider and indeed, even the government who mandates these vaccines. The Omnibus Health Bill with the Childhood Vaccine Protection clause in it was meant to alleviate those fears. Within STRICT guidelines it protects the vaccine making companies from lawsuits, so that the rest of the children can be immunized, while setting up a fund for the children who have been effected. Funny…some parents don’t think the money would pay back the price of a child who has been harmed by a vaccine. Thanks for the welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/44 "2000-06-11T08:26:17Z")
No, YOU didn’t, but that is how the thread started. Despite your bad experience, I hope you will join us in urgeing sliv’s freinds to get their child innoculated, of course leaving out the “p”. ---
**Author:** ![Dzdmona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@Dzdmona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dzdmona)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/45 "2000-06-11T08:59:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > No, YOU didn’t, but that is how the thread started. Despite your bad experience, I hope you will join us in urgeing sliv’s freinds to get their child innoculated, of course leaving out the “p”. > \*\* No, Daniel, I surely will not. I will join anyone who wants to encourage sliv’s friends to investigate and read up on every innoculation, however. Read the government side, read the drug company side…then find at least one source that was NOT paid by a drug company and read that too. And only then should they make up their minds whether that shot is safe enough for THEIR child. It is a highly personal decision. It’s a very difficult one and one that should never be decided…either way easily or nonchalantly. As for the contention that folks are SELFISH if they have concerns about foreign matter that is about to be injected into their child…and if in their minds, their concerns outweigh the RISK of the vaccine? Oh, please. Don’t tell me that it was fine for me to sacrafice MY child for YOUR childs herd immunity. I bet YOU wouldn’t make that decision. When my son had his TWO bad reactions…yes, the first one, tho I tried to explain the exact event, went unrecognized by his pediatrician. As I’m sure you can tell, I’m a pretty good historian, and was even then at my young and tender age. Instead of being concerned that my child had screamed for 8 hours straight and had a welt on his leg that caused him a great deal of pain, I was informed that I would never be able to enroll my child in school, sans shot. And since at that time, there was no web and the information available to me was sparse and certainly didn’t talk about adverse reactions, I knuckled under to what I thought was the “right thing to do”. Obviously I have bitterly regretted that decision over the years. When I had my 2nd son, I opted him out of the vaccine wars (ahhh, I had learned something else…that here in Ca. I COULD excercise my philisophical differences rights to not give the vaccines). Did I chose to give him the “rest” of his baby shots. Nooooo, because if one type of vaccine would do this to one of my children, how could I be sure one of the others wouldn’t harm my 2nd kid in some way? And did I feel that the safety of YOUR child was more important than mine? No, frankly that never entered my thought process then. Would it now? Maybe for 1/10th of a second, but surely no longer. I’ve learned much more about vaccine in the 22 years that have since followed. Some of it scares me to death. Most of it makes me sad. The DTap is supposed to be safer…but can I find hard figures and facts from disinterested researchers? No, I can’t. I’m sad that we can’t make a safe vaccine or have a screening test that would show who will react and who won’t. Until that day, I will honor everyone’s decision…and know that if they have done their homework, they’ve made a tough decision, either way they choose. Parenting isn’t easy…and there is no one pat answer to all…but do not tell me that I am selfish because I chose NOT to sacrafice my 2nd son for yours. I won’t buy that line of reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/46 "2000-06-11T09:59:56Z")
I am sorry for your terrible experiance. But I would rather that each take a small risk their child be adversely affected than see millions of children SURELY die or be crippled. A close friend of mine had Polio, and he was the last generation that should have had it. But more cases are cropping up, and for no reason other than stupidity and selfishness. Smallpox has been wiped out, due to innoculations. Before innoculations, only about 50% of childen made it to adulthood. There is NOTHING in the world that has no risk, we just must act to reduce it. What you are saying is that YOU hope everyone ELSE gets the shots, so you don’t have to risk YOUR children. Maybe with non life threating or non- crippling diseases you might be allowed to take that chance, but not with diseases like smallpox. I accept you have reasonable & serious reservations with the P of the DPT shot, but that is no reason to doubt the validity & safety of the entire program. ---
**Author:** ![Commander\_Fortune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Commander\_Fortune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commander_Fortune)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/47 "2000-06-11T10:39:19Z")
Coosa said: > [@](#): > > sliv, you might remind your friends that, regardless of their personal feelings about vaccines, in many states your child cannot enter a day-care program or attend school without a valid vaccination record. Not true. A religious exemption is available for unvaccinated children whose parent have declined immunization due to religious reasons. You are not required to show any proof of your religion. Due to the nature of religious freedom in our country - I (admittedly) assume that it is a federal “loophole” of you will. When I enrolled my daughter in preschool several years ago, I didn’t have her vaccination records on hand. The preschool director said something like: “Oh, that’s OK, sign this. You can bring her records in whenever - were covered legally as long as we have that waiver on file.” The risks are real - both from the vaccination and the potential disease - each parent has to examine the risks and make their choice. ---
**Author:** ![Commander\_Fortune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Commander\_Fortune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commander_Fortune)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/48 "2000-06-11T10:54:28Z")
It almost seems like this ought to be in GD - ---
**Author:** ![Dzdmona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@Dzdmona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dzdmona)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/49 "2000-06-11T16:26:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > But I would rather that each take a small risk their child be adversely affected than see millions of children SURELY die or be crippled. > > Then that is your choice. You are free to make that choice. > What you are saying is that YOU hope everyone ELSE gets the shots, so you don’t have to risk YOUR children. > > Did I say that??? No, I don’t think I did. Please do not constantly tell me what I said. I’m capable of voicing my own opinion. AND I think I very clearly stated that EACH parent must make up their own mind. > > but that is no reason to doubt the validity & safety of the entire program. > > Yes, I tend to think that doubt is healthy, when it comes to injecting substances into our small children. And when I find that important information about one vaccine is not given to me or expressed inaccurately, then yes, I think it is time to question the entire program and find out where else they are disseminating false or incomplete information. As a thinking, capable adult, I deserve that right. > > Look, as parents we all must make a series of choices. Some are easy, ie. “no, you may not run with the scissors in your hand”, “no, you may not swim unattended at the age of 3”…some are more difficult: “should I breast feed”, “should I circumsize”, “should I allow pacifier or thumb”, “should I vaccinate my child…and if so with all the vaccine out there?” > > The first set of answers is hopefully easy. The second depends how you intend to parent your children. I chose not to give my young children sugar, additives and used antibiotics very judiciously. I nursed til they were over the age of 1. I didn’t put them in day care. These were my proactive parenting choices. You may make the decisions you want on these subjects. I hope you will be/are an informed parent who CAN make them while weighing all pros and cons. Just don’t take that right away from me. And just don’t tell me to sacrifice my child for yours. > > \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Dzdmona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@Dzdmona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dzdmona)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/50 "2000-06-11T16:29:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > The risks are real - both from the vaccination and the potential disease - each parent has to examine the risks and make their choice. > > \*\* Yes, thank you. That is exactly what I said. And please forgive me if I haven’t quite figured out how to include multiple quotes with in the body of my post. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2000, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/51 "2000-06-12T06:25:21Z")
Backed up by Moms… Thanks Mom 😃 -Sam ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2000, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/52 "2000-06-12T09:04:08Z")
**[Moderator’s Note: I have removed the text of this posting in its entirety, as it consisted solely of an off-topic, highly offensive (in the context) and copyrighted work. -manhattan]** ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2000, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/53 "2000-06-12T09:30:41Z")
There once was a guy named Reilly, Who thought I’d reply with a smiley, as time came to pass, He let out a gasp, as I inserted my foot in his [expletive deleted]. Oh, and [expletive deleted] you buddy. I don’t blame anyone for the shot, I blame intolerant, ignorant people like you for being able to look at the numbers and schluff it all off as if it was a big joke. If there was more awareness, the government and the drug companies would HAVE to pull the drug and go with one that worked, both in the way of reactance and protection. But people just like you PuppyBoy are staying ignorant, “Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil”. Allright sheep? wanna stay that way? it’s cool with me, just don’t even think to tell me that I’m right or wrong here, cause you don’t even have a clue. You wanna play Russian Roulette with your kids? That’s perfectly fine with me, but don’t think that I’m gonna join your little club and deny the facts. You shoulda left this thread alone. None of you can come up with info to the contrary of what I’ve posted, so now you come back with [expletive deleted] anectdotal Oedipus Rex poetry because my mother posted to a thread she felt strongly about? It just shows how petty and childish the people of the board can get when their beliefs are challenged and they’ve nothing but bullsh\*t “greater good” statements to make. Even Jill doesn’t know the numbers that the government has posted in multiple places on the web and on paper, acknowledging the reactance rate of the DPT shot(BTW, good to see you’re still around Jill :)). So, come up with something worth a damned to say, or don’t post at all DoggyBoy. -Sam **[Expletives deleted at the specific request of the author of this post. -manhattan]** ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2000, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/54 "2000-06-12T10:29:35Z")
Assanine comments above aside(please Manhattan can you remove my bumbles? :)), I found on the CDC’s website some interesting reports, most of them stating the reactivity of DPT, Jill. **This is concerning reactance-** > [@](#): > > Whole-cell DTP vaccines are commonly associated with several local adverse events (e.g., erythema, swelling, and pain at the injection site), fever, and other mild systemic events (e.g., drowsiness, fretfulness, and anorexia) (5,6). More severe systemic events (e.g., convulsions {with or without fever} and hypotonic hyporesponsive episodes) occur less frequently (ratio of one case to 1,750 doses administered) among children who receive whole-cell DTP vaccine (5). Acute encephalopathy occurs even more rarely (ratio of 0-10.5 cases to one million doses administered) (7). Experts disagree on whether whole-cell pertussis vaccine causes lasting brain damage, but agree that if the vaccine causes such damage it does so only rarely (7). Concerns about safety prompted the development of more purified (acellular) pertussis vaccines that are associated with a lower frequency of adverse events and are effective in preventing pertussis disease. **This quote is concerning The efficacy of the vaccination:** > [@](#): > > The increase in reported pertussis cases has occurred despite pertussis vaccination coverage levels that are higher than at any time in the past. The proportion of children aged 19-35 months who had received three or more doses of whole-cell DTP or diphtheria and tetanus toxoids vaccine (DT) reached 93% in 1994 (11). (Of those vaccinated, less than 2% are estimated to have received DT {CDC, unpublished data}.) Possible explanations of this increase in disease include a) decreased vaccine efficacy, b) waning immunity among adolescents and adults vaccinated during childhood, c) increased diagnosis and reporting of pertussis because of greater awareness among physicians about the disease, and d) enhanced surveillance and more complete reporting in some states (12,13). Those both came from here: [http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00048610.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00048610.htm) This link has to do with the prevalence of SIDS post-DPT: [http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/research/confound.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/research/confound.htm) and the factors that can be attributed(possibly), to the occurence of SIDS-related deaths post-vaccination. These contraindications have been set down, and I happen to know of a friend who was not briefed regarding the safety, efficacy, or contraindications to DPT vaccination, just **last week!**. So, as you said Jill, the CDC does in fact have a wealth of info regarding vaccination in general, and DPT in particular. -Sam P.S.-- Sorry again Manhattan! 😃 Forgive me? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2000, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/55 "2000-06-12T10:36:53Z")
I hate to beat a dead horse, as surely I have, but straight from the CDC I read the following: > [@](#): > > Region of the Americas. The last case of indigenous polio in the Americas was reported from Peru in 1991. In September 1994, an international commission convened by PAHO certified that indigenous transmission of wild poliovirus had been interrupted in the Americas (1). Here’s the URL: [http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00036748.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00036748.htm) So, no, Polio’s not cropping up all over the country, laying in wait to single out all the little kids. -Sam ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2000, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/56 "2000-06-12T14:33:22Z")
**Doghouse** , that was so far out of line that I’m speechless. Knock it off. **GaWd** , your response was also out of line. Thank you for recognizing it, even if belatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2000, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/57 "2000-06-12T15:15:49Z")
Sorry, manhattan. I’ll be more careful. DHR ---
**Author:** ![sliv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@sliv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sliv)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2000, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/58 "2000-06-14T21:29:27Z")
sorry to bring this thread back from the dead, but I’ve a few more things to add. First off, shame on you Doghouse Reilly. I mean, really. With friend like you, who needs enemies? If Manhattan had the power, I’d ask him to simply excise that posting. And the song is from Tom Lehrer. Sheesh. GaWd & DzDmona, I think I can understand your point of view, and in your shoes, I doubt I’d behave much differently. However, my friends aren’t basing their decisions on personal experience or even good research. He’s using sources that I doubt honest vaccine opposers would use. His sources are full of goofy, touchy-feely new-age nostrums, with Homeopathy being the closest thing to real medicine, and the believe that disease isn’t caused by germs, but by bad thoughts and bad diet, the furthest. Also, from what I’ve been able to gleen from other friends who have school age children, local schools have the ultimate veto on whether or not a child will be accepted without proof of vaccination. And none of them, at least here in our particular corner of CA, accept children without it. Sure, some may slip by for several years, but eventually the school will catch up. (My mom works for the county, and field calls from displeased parents whose kids have been yanked from school because they don’t have proof of vaccination on a fairly frequent basis.) It’s also my understanding that the waivers one can obtain from the state (philosophical, religious, or medical) only apply to the state, and not at the school level. So it’s more a waiver to prevent child protective services from breathing down your neck than a waiver to allow an un-vaccinated child into anywhere & everywhere. At least, that’s what I’ve been able to parse out. I could easily be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2000, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/59 "2000-06-14T21:59:04Z")
Wait. Highly offensive, off topic _and_ copyrighted? It’s gone. ::Sigh:: There goes any chance of this one making Threadspotting. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2000, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586/60 "2000-06-15T01:52:52Z")
Boss: send this one to GD, I suggest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-good-information-on-vaccines-innoculations-epidemics-etc/21586.md?page=4)