Looking for good information on Vaccines, innoculations, epidemics, etc.

Great Debates
21

Thanks folks, this is the sort of stuff I’m looking for. Can anyone recommend a good introductory work on the history of immunization? When the sources they’re using talk about polio, for example, they focus exclusively on the 50s, and ignore the previous outbreak of earlier in the century.

Also, we’re in California, and I’m not sure what the policy is on allowing children to attend school with or without proof of vaccination. Where could I go to get this info? (www.california.edu is only higher ed.)

GaWd - I find the site you linked to very interesting, though by having four cases where things went wrong at the very top of the page makes me question their objectivity. <mini-hijack>In your own case, you mention epilepsy as one of the outcomes of your own vaccination. I was under the impresion that epilepsy was a purely physical phenomena, not a chemical or biological one. (My last class having to do with brain structure and function was 10 years ago, so I’m probably totally misremembering.)</mini-hijack>

QuickSilver - I hope you make your deadline. I’d love to see cites to the studies you mention.

Kiffa - Thanks. You’re doing important work, and this just the sort of information I’m looking for. (Though I feel I need to re-iterate: it’s not my baby (I couldn’t get a date in a women’s prison if I were a greased millionaire with a fistful of pardons), but that of two very close friends of mine.)

Lance Turbo - We can do better than a photo of a polio victim. A family friend of ours just missed the vaccine when it was introduced in the fifties. She’s not in an iron lung, buy she sure ain’t happy. The problem is that the sources they’re using usually claim that the vaccine itself causes polio, and that therefore not taking the shot reduces their son’s chances of catching it. Sigh.

Also, does anyone have any info on immunization rates in other countries?

22

Epilepsy is a complex syndrome of a complex organ, and may be due to physical or chemical or biological phenomena, or a combination.

“Epilepsy is a condition of recurring seizures. A seizure is an abnormal firing of cerebral neurons, which may or may not have a clinical manifestation.” (EPILEPSY A Brief Overview)

“In about seven out of ten people with epilepsy, no cause can be found. Among the rest, the cause may be any one of a number of things that can make a difference in the way the brain works. For example, head injuries or lack of oxygen during birth may damage the delicate electrical system in the brain. Other causes include brain tumors, genetic conditions (such as tuberous sclerosis) , lead poisoning, problems in development of the brain before birth, and infections like meningitis or encephalitis. Epilepsy is often thought of as a condition of childhood, but it can develop at any time of life. About 30 percent of the 125,000 new cases every year begin in childhood, particularly in early childhood and around the time of adolescence. Another period of relatively high incidence is in people over the age of 65.” (Epilepsy Foundation: Information and Education)

My son was not officially diagnosed as epileptic until he exhibited an abnormal EEG other than immediately after a seizure, but I can’t find a cite for that part of the definition.

23

I believe the problem was with the P part of the DPT shot. You can now get just a DT shot if that is what you wish. There were/are significant problems with the P vaccine. But if all children were immunized with the P vaccine, less total childern would die. If a few parents wish to opt out it’s their business, but you can’t eliminate all risk in life.

24

My apologies, I STILL have not learned how to insert an active hyperlink into this new format. I swear, I need lessons with the Great Tuba Diva. My WAG ( with no link to support it ) is that if UNICEF has a web site, you would find ooogles of data there. :slight_smile:

Cartooniverse
25

I think I have quite a perspective since my mother was quite active in lobbying for vaccine reform in the 1980’s, and was a major contributor to the Omnibus health bill. She also chaired a local DPT activism group in which parents of DPT affected children participated.

Even in the 80’s there were quite a few cases in the Bay Area. Santa Clara’s long-time mayor, Eddie Souza even had a son who was affected. So, yeah, I think I have a pretty good perspective.

Oh, and I wasn’t published, I was documented.

Not if it will save my family from the horror that I’ve had to put my family through with this ordeal, not in the least.

Yes Labdude, it was the “p” that caused the damage. Yes you can get the DT shot. You can even be given DTaP too, but it’s not been evaluated for reactivity as far as I know.

And I’m not talking about eliminating all risk in life, I’m talking specifically about protecting your child from a SPECIFIC risk that can be avoided.

It is named so for the sound of the cough, not the severity of the disease. Dengue Fever was called “Break-bone fever”, but it didn’t break your bones, they just ached terribly.

JonF- I looked through your cite, and found this in a table at the end listed as “Approximate rates for the occurrence of adverse events following receipt of DTP (regardless of dose number in the series or age of the child)”.

Does this sound safe? I’m sorry if I don’t think so, but 1 in 1750 doses for seizure activity or collapse seizures is a HUGE rate of occurences.
Sliv- As with all things related to the brain(recent discoveries show), that it is ALL about chemistry. A seizure is simply mis-firing nerve synapses. Nerves function on chemicals solely.

In my case, I have a physical anomaly in my temporal lobe that causes seizure activity. Medication helps…and do you know how enti-epileptic meds work? you guessed it, they block one or another in a group of brain chemicals. Their actions in turn block the brain from essentially short-circuiting.

In California, we have several ways to opt out of vaccination. One is the medical waiver, another is the religious waiver, and a third is the Philosophical difference waiver. My brother was opted out under the “Philisophical Difference” waiver.

I hope I’ve answered most of your questions.

-Sam

26

Since no one else mentioned it, I’ll recommend www.quackwatch.com,which has good information on vaccines. It is, as Quackwatch usually is, very readable. I’ve linked the main page – you can do a search from there.

Sliv – Good luck with your friends. I’m not sure any amount of ammo is going to help you. The majority of anti-vaccine types are Luddite nut-jobs and damned dificult to reason with.

BTW, I work at a bookstore – when I get to work today I’ll see what we have about the history of epidemics. I believe there is at least one fairly recent work that may be the type of thing you’re looking for. I’ll post anything I find tonight.

27

This topic is a lot like gun control, no middle ground, just a lot of shouting from the extremes. It’s one I’ve been thinking a lot about recently as my wife’s due date was last Monday (still waiting).

Thankfully both my wife and I agree on this issue, otherwise things could get ugly. We’ve decided to have our child vaccinated with the full childhood series. Now before anyone accuses us of having our heads in the sand, we have looked at both sides. My wife’s sister happens to fall into the anti-vaccination camp and is quite politically active for the cause. So needless to say we have been exposed to a lot of information from the no-shots side.

Are we 100% sure? Of course not. There are risks to vaccinations, usually from one of the ingredients use to create the vaccine (i.e. eggs used to make the flu shots).
But there also risks to not being vaccinated. Sure you can say “When was the last time anybody caught polio?”, but there’s a reason you can say that. Smallpox was wiped from the face of the earth, but I’ve got a scar on my shoulder that helps explain why. It really comes down to each person or parent performing that risk analysis and living with the decision either way.

A lot may depend on your living conditions. If you live in a gated community, there’s might a good chance your kids won’t get exposed to anything vaccinate-able, but if you don’t live in Pleasantville, your kids may not be so lucky.

Either way there is no easy answer. I may disagree with my sister-in-law’s decision not to immunize her two kids, but I wouldn’t take that choice away from her. It’s just that this is one time I hope that I never get to say “I told you so…”

28

GaWd’s irrational response to a tragic coincidence is completly understandable. I might even say “natural.” It follows the same primitive reasoning you used to hear from seat belt opponents: “I don’t wear a seat belt because my (mother)/(brother-in-law)/(dentist’s nephew) was wearing a seat belt when (his)/(her) car went out of control and (crashed and burned)/(fell in the river). (He)/(she) COULDN’T GET (HIS)/(HER) SEAT BELT UNBUCKLED and (burnt to death)/(drowned). No, I won’t wear a seat belt.”

Fortunately, people who endanger their lives by making irrational decisions about the value of seat belts don’t infect other people with germs.

I completely understand how GaWd feels. People have a need to blame something when bad things happen. By buying into the delusion that DPT definitely caused his epilepsy (“it’s been proven, and I won a federal lawsuit”), his mother gets a cause to devote herself to, he gets himself featured in “a very informative book,” and he can blame not only his epilepsy on the DPT, but can blame DPT for “LD’s, allergies and athsma” as well. Hey, didn’t you loose a tennis doubles match last weekend? A DPT side effect for sure.

Go with it GaWd, stick to your delusions. Exercise your right to decline immunizations. Just don’t endanger my kids.

29

It’s at leat a significant rate. Sorry, I don’t have cites handy nor the time to dig them up right now (I’ll try later if you wish), but the vast majority of those seizures are single incidents, and the vast majority of them (and all seizures) are not life-threatening or harmful. Scary as hell, yes; believe me, I know. But just a significant incidence of seizures doesn’t convince me that it’s in general a good idea to skip the P.

I know a lot about anti-seizure meds. (Epilepsy is only one classification of seizure disorders). My son has been taking various ones for 21 years. Right now he’s on Depakote (buffered valproic acid) and time-release Tegretol, with an occasional Ritalin when he needs to be “sharp”. He’s taken just about all the possible meds at one time or another. The side effects can be very inconvenient, especially with Dilantin.

He has had a few status epilepticus seizures (basically, one that couldn’t be stopped by standard means) and would have died without hospital-level intervention in at least one of them. In one seizure that was not in itself life threatening, he wound up lying against an active electric baseboard heater and spent two months in Boston Shriner’s Burns hospital getting skin grafts for a third-degree burn three inches wide and 14 inches long on his leg.

And we declined the P of DPT for him long ago.

I believe that most children should receive DPT instead of DT.

30

One thing I forgot to mention … we declined P because my son’s disorder arose before he received any vaccinations.

31

Personally, I don’t consider that 1 in 1750 rate of seizure activity factoid especially shocking. After all, one of the most common and innocuous side effects of the DPT innoculation is fever. It isn’t at all uncommon for a kid to have a seizure as a result of a high fever. Furthermore, as Jon stated, these febrile convulsions aren’t life-threatening or harmful. I suffered frequently from toncillitus when I was little and had 4 or 5 febrile seizures between the ages of 1 (the first was on my first birthday) and 3. Pretty scary for my folks but they caused no damage at all. My son also had a febrile convulsion at one year of age. Again, scary but not damaging.

BTW, I found a book suggestion for Sliv. Viruses, Plagues & History by Michael B. A. Oldstone. ISBN# 0-19-513422-2 I was too busy to do more than look at the book quickly, but it looks like exactly the type of thing you’re looking for. It was a trade paperback and cost $14.00.

32

Umm, if you wish to pore through the reams of tests that were performed on me throughout my young life, you’ll see that this was not some freak occurence. I wasn’t born with these problems, had no seizures, or allergies or anything until the day of my shot. Then after the DPT shot I had a perment scar in my brain. I was a normal kid until then. No illnesses, no seizures, no LD’s, no allergies.

My mother’s cause was to try and save people from the same horror she went through, that is all. No delusion. Read up on the classic DPT reaction, that’s what I am with the exception that I’m not a total invalid.

Jon- I feel for you and your boy and your whole family. I’ve gone through the same thing and put my whole family through the trauma of epilepsy.

I still say the P should be eliminated.

Umm, you don’t find 1 occurence per 1750 shots shocking? These are non-febrile(READ-not fever-caused) seizures(read the graph again if you’re confused). I had a fever, but it didn’t cause febrile seizures, it caused a permanent condition. A permanent condition caused by a neurotoxin. That neurotoxin is pertussis.

Shold I even get into your “Scary but not damaging” statement? I don’t think so. Just ask Jon about Status epilepticus, or look it up. Or even better, try having a tonic-clonic(Grand mal), episode as an adult in front of a whole mall of people.

It saddens me to see that nothing has changed since the days when this happened to me. People are still ignorant of the facts. People are still more concerned with the “greater good” than the lives of their children.

I think that your arguments are about as informed and disgusting as the argument for pro death penalty that just because a few innocents are eliminated that it is better for the “greater good” that a few people are killed or maimed, rather than letting them loose on the street.

As far as digging up more studies on the safety of DPT, the Cherry study(the one quoted in JonF’s cite), is the only one of it’s sort that was ever carried out in America. Almost no numbers exist. Aside from that study(which was shut down by the feds before it was completed-the numbers were so bad they were never released until, obviously recent times), there was one done in Sweden in the 70’s and one around the same time in Great Britain(that one showed something like 1 in 700 or 750 reactions). The studies show the evidence, and there are many independent sources available for your use. You wish to still ignore them? That’s cool with me, but my eyes have been open wide for all of my life.

-Sam

33

Even if DPT immunization DOES cause rare, severe adverse effects it is irrational to reject it because the threat of a very severe but extremely low probability adverse effect is outweighed by the benefit which, while modest, has a very high probability.

However, there is no proof that DPT causes severe adverse effects. According to Gangarosa EJ, Galazka AM, Wolfe CR, Phillips LM, Gangarosa RE, Miller E, and Chen RT, “Severe side-effects of whole-cell pertussis vaccines are so rare that they defy mesurement. The American Academy of Pediatrics, The USA’s National Vaccine Advisory Committee, and the Advisory Commitee on Immunizations Practices, concur that whole-cell pertussis vaccine is not a proven cause of brain damage, sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), infantile spasms, or Reye’s syndrome” (“Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story” The Lancet, 31 January 1998). Of course, this doesn’t prove that GaWd’s problems were not caused by DPT. There is no way to prove that just as there is no way to prove that GaWd’s problems WERE caused by DPT. It is impossible to prove that any specific event was (or was not) caused by any given specific antecedent event. (Prove that the cause of the tree falling down in my back yard and breaking my birdbath yesterday was NOT my walking under a ladder last Tuesday.) We have to go on our observations and the probabilities that we calculate from those observations. What we find is that millions of kids get DPT vaccine and thousands of otherwise apparently health kids suddenly develop unexplained epilepsy. But our observations show that the number who develop epilepsy shortly after DPT immunization is not higher than what one would expect from chance. The conclusion has to be that there is no good reason to believe that any given case of epilepsy following DPT immunization is not just a coincidence. That’s life.

34

Uhh…what? So what you’re saying is that we have cluster of kids who “mysteriously” develop epilepsy, various neurological disorders, and other assorted issues immediately following a DPT shot, but that the shot isn’t the causative factor?

Give me a break man. I’m not sure what you’re getting at, but a healthy child doesn’t mysteriously develop encephalopathy and neurological conditions without out a causative factor, and to have a major immunological event occur with the above reactions is almost a no-brainer to corroborate.

Your eyes are wide shut. Read the info JonF provided, and read this: http://909shot.com/whooping.htm The link I’ve provided goes over facts and figures from studies, and our government, warning signs of a reaction Etc. It also touches on the effectiveness of the immunization, effects of “herd immunity”, and the like.

As far as your statement that “that’s life”, well that’s just plain wrong. That isn’t life. If you people are as discompassionate as you seem, the country will definitely suffer worse ills than Pertussis.

-Sam

35

I’m very sorry but healthy children DO “mysteriously develop encephalopathy and neurological conditions without out a causative factor” that can be identified. That’s life. There are a lot things that medical science can’t explain. That’s life.

Face it, people who have more facts than you do, who better understand how to interpret those facts, and who are at least as compasionate as you are have come to a different conclusion, “…whole-cell pertussis vaccine is not a proven cause of brain damage.” You can call them names if you wish but that is not going to change anything. That’s life.

36

I can produce just as much research that says quite the contrary Yeah. You found one reference for your side, I came up with one for my side. I can quote you from study after study, expert after expert, and book after book written by experts that tells quite the opposite of what your cite from the Lancet says.

And, no, I don’t think they’re better informed, have better facts, or “know how to interpret” the facts any better than the experts on my side of this discussion do.

And, no, that’s not life.

-Sam

37

From the government even…

1 in 600 infants? Is that still acceptable?

Here’s a clipping from a product insert from the drug company that produces the DPT vaccine…

So, tell me, are all of the above experts off their rockers? Are they ill-informed? can they not interpret the data like the pro-immunization experts? Are these above cites unacceptable?

Nope, I don’t think so. Your government admits the corroboration between DPT and infant maiming/death, and so do quite a few experts out there. I don’t know of a single study that has shown that DPT does NOT cause the above mentioned events. The article you submitted as a cite is just that, and article. Not a study, nothing scientific about it.
-Sam

38

Some people who refuse to immunize their children will tell you that their kids are protected because everyone else has immunized theirs. I think this is unethical; to take advantage of the “herd immunity” of others. It also doesn’t work. Adults are not immune to pertussis, because the vaccine has worn off. We don’t continue to get shots for it because it’s a mild disease in older people. But we can carry it to babies and young childen, and if they haven’t been immunized, they can get very sick and even die. These parents who won’t get their kids immunized should visit a hospital intensive care unit to see children with pertussis (whooping cough) who can’t breath, have seizure, and often end up brain damaged. Most of these new parents have had the luxury to grow up in a world where most childhood diseases have been effectively controlled by vaccinations, so they usually don’t see the horrors of only a generation ago.

  • Jill
39

[[In one study, serious reactions to the DPT vaccine (including grand mal epilepsy and encephalopathy) were shown to be as high as 1 in 600. In another study, approximately one out of every 200 children who received the full DPT series suffered severe reactions.]]

The DPT vaccine was never very dangerous. I don’t remember seeing these stats. Regardless, the newer vaccine (now available) is even much safer than the old one.
Jill

40

Jill, if you haven’t seen these stats, I don’t know where you’ve been. They are easy to come by and are posted in various places.

I’m sure that almost every (honest) vaccine researcher would shudder at your statement that the vaccine was never very dangerous. And I could probably find enough parents whose children have been devastated by this vaccine to have a lynching party.

I have seen children with whooping cough. I’ve also never seen one with permanent sequelae. NO ONE said that it was a fun or trivial disease, but please note that it is ENTIRELY treatable in this day and age. Please note, that you are also correct in that the vaccine itself is not very effective. 96% of all proven whooping cough victims are UP TO DATE on their vaccines.

I’ve also been on the other side of the issue, Jill. I’ve held the hands of mothers whose babies have died or been permenately brain damaged due to the vaccine. I held the hand of a mom who’s precious daughter was paralyzed by the MMR vaccine. I’ve visited the institutions where some of these victims now reside, their parents dead or unable to care for them at home any longer. I’ve watched children who need to be lead around in life with crash helmets on their heads, lest the next seizure do further damage to the gray matter they have left.

I also know what it’s like to watch one’s healthy, bright, beautiful baby seize in the emergency room 8 hours after receiving the shot. And watched my shining star struggle to achieve what he was meant to achieve while having to cope with learning disabilities, epilepsy, and other immune difficulties brought on by vaccine. I could bore you to death with my observations. I won’t here. If you want to discuss the personal side, you may certainly email me and I will respond.

Jill, if people like you want to give their children the DPT shot, please, by all means, go ahead. But don’t you DARE tell me that it’s ok to sacrifice MY CHILD for the good of the herd. It is NOT ok.

If others are uncertain as to the validity of what I say, please, please do your research. You don’t have to go too far to get it. Read, then question whether it’s ok if your child is the one in 1750. Frankly it wasn’t ok with me.

My only request is that parents FULLY understand the implications of their personal decision. We all make those decisions out of love for our children. Just remember…there is a cure for whooping cough. There is NO cure for the side effects of the P portion of the DPT.

Yes, I am GaWd’s mother. He makes me very proud, indeed.