Looks like a pro-life circle jerk to me

The BBQ Pit
21

I hesitate to jump into yet another abortion thread. But since y’all have given your opinions, I must give mine for some balance.

I agree with the OP - I see it as a circle jerk, in a way, for the following reason:

I am pro-choice, based on my belief that “when life begins” is irrelevant to the issue of whether a woman should have access to an abortion. A woman has sovereignty over her own body, regardless of when someone thinks (or can convincingly argue) that life begins. That’s that. The question in the thread is a non-issue for many pro-choice people, and of interest largely to anti-abortion people.

Finally:

Been there, done that. Seen the damage done.

Welcome to post-modernism.

22

I hesitate to jump into yet another abortion thread. But since y’all have given your opinions, I must give mine for some balance.

I see it as a circle jerk, in a way, for the following reason:

I am pro-choice, based on my belief that “when life begins” is irrelevant to the issue of abortion. A woman has sovereignty over her own body, regardless of when someone thinks (or can convincingly argue) that life begins. That’s that. The question in the thread is a non-issue for many pro-choice people, and of interest largely to anti-abortion people.

Finally:

Been there, done that. Seen the damage done.

Welcome to post-modernism.

23

If that’s the way you feel, so be it. Feel free to stay out of the discussion if you feel it is not of interest to you.

24

Of COURSE it’s relevant! Because, see, if it’s just a clump of tissue, no harm done. But if it’s a seperate HUMAN BEING (which then negates the “my body” argument, of course) then it’s murder. The “when life begins” is the whole crux of the debate!

25

I often wonder what it would look like if a bunch of protesters blocked access to a church…they tell prospective churchgoers that they shouldn’t go in there because your moral values do not match our own.

I’m pretty sure the irony would be lost.

26

Well the reasons you provide for believing it a circle jerk make it clear that YOU DID NOT READ THE OP THAT WAS THE TARGET OF THIS THREAD! THE OP IS NOT NOT NOT ABOUT ABORTION!

Neither pro-life nor pro-choice people have a corner on the prenatal biology discussion market! There can (at least I thought until seeing the irrational and ill-read posts that followed) be discussions about babies in the womb and the question of when they are “alive” without entering into the abortion arena…

The fact that you think the beginning of life is irrelevant is very sad for you. If you insist on shoehorning this into the abortion argument, I think people on both sides of the issue are VERY concerned with when life begins…wether you believe it is at conception or at birth or somewhere in between.

27

Excuse me, but in what way does the presence of a separate human being negate the “it’s my body” argument?

Suppose I walked up to you, and without your consent, using advanced Star Trek technology, merged my body on to yours in such a way that, were you to sever the connection, I would die. Are you then obligated to take me everywhere, stuck to you? Shall we enjoy long hot showers together? Shall I join you on dates, in bed with your SO, and while you’re on the john? Because, after all, I am a human being, and if you break our connection, I will die…

Now, there are plenty of points that are not precisely analogous to pregnancy in my little vignette, I know. But in general, “it’s my body” has some probative force. The issue is always whether the particular circumstances are such that “it’s my body” carries enough weight to overcome the “human life is valuable” side of things.

  • Rick
28

For you it is. I’m just saying that for me, and for other (but by no means ALL) pro-choice people, it is not.

I don’t believe it was me who was doing the shoehorning. The OP that I am addressing is titled “Looks like a pro-life circle jerk to me.” I was suggesting why it may be that anti-abortion people would be more attracted to the discussion than pro-choice people.

If you will notice I have not participated in the original thread because, as mentioned above, it’s not an important issue to me.

29

Some (including, unless I miss my guess, kung fu lola) would point out that whatever the hell it is, it’s in their damn body, and requires their active co-operation to survive at all, much less grow and develop, and it does not matter if a fetus is actually Ghandi: unless a woman permits use of her uterus/umbilical cord/willingness not to jump up and down repeatedly/etc., a fetus’s possible right to life is superceded by the fact that it simply does not have what it needs to live, and that the mother is not obliged to provide a uterus/et al.

30

While I’m rabidly pro-choice, I don’t think this argument holds much water.

I had a close friend whose girlfriend became pregnant a couple of years ago. She threatened to abort their child several times, insisting that my friend adopt her other son (not his) or else she would terminate the pregnancy.

Then it was, “Marry me or I’ll get an abortion.”

Then it was, “If you keep arguing with me, I’ll get an abortion.”

and ultimately, after raking him over broken glass by his heart a few times and discussing the joys of parenting and getting him quite excited about their new arrival, she made the decision to have an abortion anyway. Needless to say, he was devestated and I was heatbroken for him.

It was at about that moment that I decided that men are parents too.

Unfortunately, it’s hard to strike a balance when only one gender has to contend with pregnancy and child-bearing, but to slam ones fist on the table and scream “Keep out of this, it’s not your concern!” is hurtful and demeaning to men who WANT to be good fathers, to say the very least.

31

Well said, malkavia. I am very close to someone with a similar experience - he was quite broken up about his (ex)fiancée breaking up with him and aborting his child with no explanation. The whole thing took him a lot of time & therapy to recover from. I don’t know her side of the story, but that isn’t the point - the point is that, as the father, he most certainly should have had a say in whether that child lived or died. She was a grown woman in her 30’s (at least) - if she didn’t want to become pregnant in the first place she could/should have used some form of birth control. No, they had agreed to have the child together, then she changed her mind. And it wasn’t that she didn’t want to have any children; she already had 2, and later went on to have another by a man she also did not marry. (In fact, I suspect it’s possible she never was even pregnant in the first place, that it was all an elaborate lie she concocted to manipulate him - but that’s another thread, I guess).

So, to say men should have “no say” in whether a child is aborted or not is sexist and selfish. I know it isn’t likely anyone’s mind will be changed on the abortion issue, but I would hope that those who feel only women should have a say in the abortion issue will reconsider.

(BTW, the man in that story is now my husband.)

32

I’ve heard that argument before, and I despise it. I hate, hate, hate, and loathe it. It needs to be taken out behind the barn and shot. It’s evil. The reason why it is so distateful is the reason we don’t, and shouldn’t, perform third trimester abortions. It’s infanticide!

I’m pro choice (for lack of a better phrase) but I can’t stand the my body - my choice argument. It attempts to justify abortion by pointing outt that the fetus relies on the mother for survival. So fucking what? An infant relies on the mother for survival. A toddler relies on the mother for survival. If the fetus is a seperate human being, it’s destruction would be infanticide, regardless of how inconvient its survival is to the pregnant mother.

The argument attempts to reduce a question regarding life and death to one of comfort and convenience. It’s evil.

No comment on kung fu lola’s man hatred.

33

Well said Monkey. I hate that argument as much as you do. It makes me believe that anyone that uses it is a logical simpleton. If it is taken as a valid and logical argument, then the implications are absurd.

34

This is one thing you an I have in common. I believe the Death Penalty to be Cruel and Unusual Punishment that has no place in a civilized society.

35

What damage did modernism do? Is the quest to understand the universe, unlocking the secrets of science and philosophy, discovering truth, somehow damaging? Because it forced people to face true reality instead of faking reality?

Well, then we might as well cease debating altogether if there are no truths divorced from somebody’s perspective. After all, postmodernism renders logic and reason useless, we might as well all just talk about our precious feelings. Boy, we can just wish reality to be a certain way, and create our own little fantasy worlds! What’s the point of truth if it stops us from faking more pleasant realities, stops us from seeing the entire world as nothing more than a power struggle between people’s competing fake realities?

You can’t seriously be embracing postmodernism?

36

Not embracing it, no.

I hesitate to hijack this thread into one on postmodernism, especially since I am about to leave the computer until Monday.

But I believe PM has important things to teach us, like:

There are different ways to look at reality, depending who you are and where you’re looking from. The damage that Modernism has done (at least in the context that I’m most familiar with, ie international development) comes from its assumption that there is an objective reality in every case, and if that reality doesn’t work for you, then fuck you. (In the case of ID, it’s saying that “your failure to become developed to the point of the USA and England is due to a failure on your part, because clearly the system works, because the USA and England have succeeded” and ignoring historical and systemic factors, like colonialism and cash cropping, which may have been involved.)

As an example (and please understand I am trying to do justice to an incredibly complicated issue, in a non-controversial fashion, in the ten minutes remaining in my Internet time), look at language.

There are some concepts which English just doesn’t have a word for.

Modernists (and again, this is an ANALOGY for the sake of illustration) would have it that that concept simply doesn’t exist.

Postmodernists would say that reality is not limited to our perception, and that our inability to imagine something may not be because it doesn’t exist, but because our ability to imagine is limited.

I freely acknowledge that this sort of thing leads quickly into absurdity and pointlessness. Thus I have not “embraced” it. What I have embraced is its position that there other people may quite possibly experience the world differently, depending on your position (social, geographical, physical, economic, ethnic etc).

In this case, the “fact” that life begins at conception may well be true and the “objective reality” that science gives us. If I am pregnant and am in no position to raise a child, that is ALSO “reality” and although it cannot be compared directly with the reality listed above, they come in conflict when the question of abortion is asked. We can both right. I am ending a human life, and I am making a decision which will affect my own life in a way which I deem to be positive. It is only to decide which “reality” is more important, and I am of the position that my reality, concerning my body, is.

Hope that helps. Please don’t flame me. If anyone is interested in further discussion, please start a thread on the topic. I won’t, as I am not interested in further closed-minded vitriol like that shown above.

37

I don’t like abortion. I don’t think I’d ever have one. And men do, in my opinion, have a say in whether a child they made is killed. They have a say in abortion, I’ll grant that.

I just have trouble telling a woman who’s been raped, who’s a victim of incest, who suffers from health problems badly enough that she might not survive giving birth, that she has no choice in the matter.

I would have trouble telling a woman this and letting her go out and buy a clothes hanger. If it’s going to happen – and it is going to happen, it might as well be clean and safe and sanitary.

Then again, I believe in elective euthanasia and legalizing drugs, so at least I’m consistent. :smiley:

38

So, AFAIK third trimester abortion is actually extremely rare and is almost always performed because of a severe health problem with the mother or fetus (as opposed to someone deciding at the 11th hour that they would just rather not have a baby). Therefore, while I sympathize with your distaste for this argument, I would propose that we also take the Partial Birth Abortion argument and retire is as a hysterical red herring.

39

Huh. I’m a man, and I’m pro-choice. Should I stay out of any debate about abortion, or is it just men who don’t agree with you who have no right to an opinion?

40

What she said. Personally, I do NOT like abortion, I do not see it as a good method of birth control. But I do not want to see it made illegal until we can have 100 percent effective birth control, and even then in cases of the woman being raped, incest, or her life being in danger, it should still be available.

lola, shut up.