# Looks like another mass shooting
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [August 5, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529 "2012-08-05T17:11:11Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/121 "2012-08-06T11:52:05Z")
UK:
> [@](#):
>
> - Two-thirds of homicide victims (68%) were male.
> \* Female victims were more likely to be killed by someone they knew. Around three-quarters of female victims knew the main suspect, compared with half (50%) of male victims.
> \* Just over half of female victims aged 16 or over had been killed by their partner, ex-partner or lover (54%, 94 offences)
> \* \*\* The most common method of killing for both male and females continues to be by sharp instrument.\*\* In 2009/10, as in each of the last eight years, male and female victims were both more likely to be killed by a sharp instrument than any other method.
> \* The second most common method for male murders involves hitting or kicking (113 homicides, or 27%)
> \* The second most common method for females murder was strangulation or asphyxiation (41 homicides, or 21%).
> \* There were 41 shooting homicide victims in 2009/10.
> \* In terms of reoffender rates, two homicide offences recorded in 2009/10 were committed by a suspect who had been convicted of a homicide on a previous occasion.
Well, I found it interesting …
> **[Murder rate: the trends that solve the crimes](https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jan/20/ukcrime-criminal-justice)**
>
> 619 murders were recorded in England and Wales in 2009/10, see the stats that help to solve crimes
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/122 "2012-08-06T12:08:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#):
>
> Indeed, anyone proposing a gun ban is a dead man, politically speaking, however I do see that there is a lot that can be done regarding enforcement of the rules to prevent people with mental issues from accessing guns and on the access to mental health care.
So, which mental illnesses would lead to these individuals having the right to bear arms taken away, and why?
At what point would they lose these rights and could they ever get them back? For instance, most mental illnesses wax and wane over time, and for some, they never recur. Would any history of any mental illness, no matter how long ago, count?
How many firearms murders are committed by someone with a mental illness? How many of those people would have had any record of having sought mental health services?
How is this registry of mental illnesses going to be assembled and maintained?
Will I have to report all the individuals I see and the diagnoses of mental illness that I make to this government registry?
Do you think this will have a chilling effect on mental health service seeking?
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### Author:  [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/123 "2012-08-06T13:12:39Z")
More guns, more homicides, [holds true generally too](http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html).
Statistics have little effect on [perception of crime](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150464/americans-believe-crime-worsening.aspx).
Gun control laws are correlated to fewer murders [here](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/)
> [@SenorBeef](#):
>
> If the media made a big news day out of every time a little kid drowned in their own pool, you’d be here screaming that we must ban outdoor pools because they’re just killing kids left and right!
> [@SenorBeef](#):
>
> Thousands of people drown in their pools every year.
> [@Martin Hyde](#):
>
> Either way it’s well under 1 per 100,000 deaths attributable, which means it’s less of a concern than things like swimming pools and ladders.
You’re comparing two disparate figures here, which is the reason for the supposed disconnect. The analogy to mass murders would be mass drownings and mass falling off ladders. I’d support an investigation into pool safety if mass drownings occurred with some regularity and I’d advocate adding security features, if possible. As it happens, there were [3308](http://www.poseidon-tech.com/us/statistics.html) drownings in the US during 2004 and [29569](http://www.jhsph.edu/news/stories/2007/vernick_gun_trafficking.html) gun related deaths.
> [@Martin Hyde](#):
>
> Guns save lives all the time.
Do you have a cite for that? If this were true, one would expect a correlation between gun ownership per capita and lifespan.
> [@Martin Hyde](#):
>
> I’d have to say this country seems to value the right to drink alcohol more than the right to possess one’s life and safety. Is that civilized? Prudent? Logical?
Two wrongs fallacy. That said, particularly easy to address. I support the right of an individual to damage their own health in whichever exciting ways they see fit, but think that right ends when they put others in danger without their consent. There are numerous restrictions on where and when people may consume alcohol and I have no problem with similar restrictions on gun ownership.
> [@SenorBeef](#):
>
> In a way, guns may offer a release valve on some of these crazies that ultimately results in fewer deaths.
Or, possibly, explosives and the components which constitute them are monitored more closely by intelligence forces. When explosives fail, they often do so spectacularly, whereas guns are less liable not to go off. There’s nothing similar to a gun range or weapons store for explosives enthusiasts, as far as I’m aware.
> [@Condescending Robot](#):
>
> there is not a shred of evidence correlating gun ownership rates with crime (lower in the US than in non-gun countries), violent crime (also lower), or murder (higher, at exactly the same rate as before the UK and Australia banned most guns…which supports the fucking null hypothesis).
I’m not sure which null hypothesis you’re referring to, but I’d like to see cites. I don’t disagree that the US has less crime on average, I just want to look at the methodology of data correction to see whether a link between gun ownership and lower crime rates can be forwarded.
> [@Condescending Robot](#):
>
> inanimate objects
Like napalm?
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/124 "2012-08-06T13:18:14Z")
Oh, for fuck’s sake. How about we wait till the bodies are cold to have another pointless gun bickering thread?
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### Author:  [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/125 "2012-08-06T13:22:33Z")
At this rate of killing, you might have to wait a while.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/126 "2012-08-06T13:29:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Oh, for fuck’s sake. How about we wait till the bodies are cold to have another pointless gun bickering thread?
So exactly what is the waiting period before discussions can be had?
I’ve seen a guy on this board say they he’s perfectly fine with having an occasional mass shooting so that he can maintain the right to have an infinitesimal chance of saving his wife with his gun. That’s seriously fucked. Until the gun nuts show some signs of being reasonable, I see no point in being reasonable in return. Therefore my starting poing in negotiations has to be banning all private ownership of guns. As to what I would settle for- it would be banning of all assault weapons (defined as being able to shoot X rounds in Y seconds, X and Y to be determined, registration of all firearms and all transfers of ownership much like there is for vehicles, collection of a ballistic sample from all firearms, limits on the numbers of guns a person can own, and limitations on the types of bullets that can be sold. But if the NRA thinks any regulation is unacceptable, I say fuck 'em, let’s ban them all.
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### Author:  [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/127 "2012-08-06T13:37:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Oh, for fuck’s sake. How about we wait till the bodies are cold to have another pointless gun bickering thread?
Too soon, eh?
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/128 "2012-08-06T13:39:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Oh, for fuck’s sake. How about we wait till the bodies are cold to have another pointless gun bickering thread?
Could you be more specific? Did you mean the bodies as the Sihk temple, the bodies at the Colorado theater, or the approximately 690 bodies from firearms murders across the country that occured in the three weeks in between?
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### Author:  [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/129 "2012-08-06T13:41:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> … I see no point in being reasonable in return.
Indeed, it’s your entire posting philosophy on any subject. I’m sure gonzomax would be very pleased to know that someone still carries the torch.
> [@](#):
>
> Therefore my starting poing in negotiations has to be banning all private ownership of guns.
What, exactly, are you negotiating with? Pocket lint?
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/130 "2012-08-06T13:46:15Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> So exactly what is the waiting period before discussions can be had?
You can have one as soon as you like. Just don’t do it in _this_ thread.
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#):
>
> Could you be more specific? Did you mean the bodies as the Sihk temple, the bodies at the Colorado theater, or the approximately 690 bodies from firearms murders across the country that occured in the three weeks in between?
This thread is about the Sikh gurdwara shootings in Wisconsin.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/131 "2012-08-06T13:50:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Oh, for fuck’s sake. How about we wait till the bodies are cold to have another pointless gun bickering thread?
No. Hell no.
Sweeping the problem of gun deaths under the carpet for a time because of another massacre is not that bright.
Get back to us when you are able to place a moratorium on gun deaths.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/132 "2012-08-06T13:52:03Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#):
>
> Indeed, it’s your entire posting philosophy on any subject. I’m sure gonzomax would be very pleased to know that someone still carries the torch.
Thank you! That’s one of the nicest things anyone ever said to me here. Gonzomax was a brilliant poster and on the right side of virtually every issue.
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/133 "2012-08-06T13:59:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> Thank you! That’s one of the nicest things anyone ever said to me here. Gonzomax was a brilliant poster and on the right side of virtually every issue.
“Was”? Oh, wait, I’m confusing him with Ralph.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/134 "2012-08-06T13:59:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> You can have one as soon as you like. Just don’t do it in _this_ thread.
>
> This thread is about the Sikh gurdwara shootings in Wisconsin.
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Yes, that incident was horrific. I feel terrible for those people and their loss.
Whoever could have foreseen that something like that could ever happen?
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/135 "2012-08-06T14:24:47Z")
It’s sadly ironic that both Sikhs and gun nuts are adamant about carrying weapons – knives for one and guns for the other.
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### Author:  [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/136 "2012-08-06T14:42:57Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> Thank you! That’s one of the nicest things anyone ever said to me here. Gonzomax was a brilliant poster and on the right side of virtually every issue.
Case closed.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/137 "2012-08-06T14:46:35Z")
The GD thread has _also_ turned into a gun debate. Fuck.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/138 "2012-08-06T14:53:29Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#):
>
> The obsessive anti-gunners who see a story about the mass death of innocent people and get a boner because it means they can feast on the corpses with more squawking about their idiotic cause are morons.
>
> You are morons because there is not a shred of evidence backing the idea that gun possession is not an individual right . . .
Wait, what? **Evidence** is irrelevant to that kind of question; perhaps you mean “argument” or “authority.”
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### Author:  [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/139 "2012-08-06T14:56:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> The GD thread has _also_ turned into a gun debate. Fuck.
So what!?
I’m not a gun owner, but still feel people have the right to own guns, (for now). I still understand why it’s a hot topic in conversations like these. What do you expect?
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-another-mass-shooting/630529/140 "2012-08-06T15:03:47Z")
If only there was some way to make my expectations clear, so people didn’t have to go around guessing. Oh, wait, what’s this?
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Oh, for fuck’s sake. How about we wait till the bodies are cold to have another pointless gun bickering thread?
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> You can have one as soon as you like. Just don’t do it in _this_ thread.
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